There isn't going to be a lot of improvement in overall EV performance/capability from better motors. Existing, boring motors are already close to 100% efficient, already small, and already powerful. Advancements here chip away at margins, its nice but nothing to get super excited about. Whereas a modest ~20% increase in energy density from batteries would be amazing. Every little bit we improve there unlocks new cap…
Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
321–330 of 362 posts
Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
#322Earlier quoted context omitted.
Uh, car batteries are much heavier than most ICE’s. The curb weight on teslas’s are crazy high. BYD can be lighter because they skip on safety gear and proper structural elements - in my experience.
> BYD can be lighter because they skip on safety gear and proper structural elements - in my experience. I'd love to hear more about your experience with BYD. The ex just bought one and my kids ride in it daily. I helped negotiate the sale - I drive a Tesla and I'm very happy with the BYD.
Also, the only cars I’ve ever ridden on that the top of my head literally touches the headliner while sitting in the back seat. Other than that, they seem good?
Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
#323Earlier quoted context omitted.
Uh, car batteries are much heavier than most ICE’s. The curb weight on teslas’s are crazy high. BYD can be lighter because they skip on safety gear and proper structural elements - in my experience.
BMW M3. Curb Weight: 3988 lb [1] Tesla Model 3. Curb Weight: 3721 lb [2] [1] https://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/3-series [2] https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3
The Tesla model S (actually more equivalent to the M3) is over 4500 lbs [https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2026/features-specs/].
No one is realistically saving weight by switching to batteries. Because batteries are heavy for the energy and gasoline is hella energy dense.
Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
Number 1 problem is battery weight though. Not electric motors. I have a 84 w123 300D, and would love to add some more power to it. Lightweight hub motors would be great, but any decent size battery would be at least 200lbs+, which is hard to do on a old chasy.
i know series hybrids aren't as efficient as parallel hybrids (thanks technology connections!), but i wonder if they'd be a good candidate for fun restomods. drop in a tiny, powerful electric motor and a small battery (crammed in whatever location is best for weight distribution), and then wire up a little genny powered off your existing fuel tank that can jump in as a range extender
Series hybrids are great for packaging, though. Parallel and series-parallel commit to certain packaging decisions like having a transmission, or a long, monolithic unit, because it's the mechanical coupling that buys them smaller motors and potentially better efficiency. Series hybrids don't care about any of that, so even though you have bigger motors and potentially higher losses, you have more freedom over where things go.
Personally, I think there's a massive untapped market in converting old cars to hybrid engines. You wouldn't try to upgrade the old engine, you'd design a smaller and more power dense package and rip all of the original gear out. Because electrification lets you cut the size of the engine down so aggressively, this is probably a feasible strategy. As you pointed out, series hybrids are probably best suited to this because of their packaging flexibility. As others have pointed out, there's tremendous potential there for replicating original driving characteristics using software and the electric motor. And if we're being honest, off-road vehicles probably should get rid of the transmission and low range, because electric motor torque is just better. As is, the potential for cars is enormous, but we're getting the worst possible outcomes thanks to legislation.
Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
wtf are you talking about? I drive one of these cars every day (that I need to drive, which isn’t that often really) without leaded gasoline. It’s the punchy little m10 motor, 4 speed transmission, and incredibly low curb weight that make these cars fun to drive. You lose all that with an electric conversion. As an aside, the most powerful F1 engine ever put on the track was made by modifying the little 4-banger m10…
I'm pretty sure the subtext of that comment was that the benefit of electric motors in retro cars is the emission reduction (and possibly cost and maintenance reduction), and not improved specs/experience. Saying "ye but it worsens the experience" misses the point.
There are so few of these cars on the road anymore that I think very little progress is to be made on emissions levels by converting them to electric, especially when you consider that you’re ruining the driving experience.
Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
wtf are you talking about? I drive one of these cars every day (that I need to drive, which isn’t that often really) without leaded gasoline. It’s the punchy little m10 motor, 4 speed transmission, and incredibly low curb weight that make these cars fun to drive. You lose all that with an electric conversion. As an aside, the most powerful F1 engine ever put on the track was made by modifying the little 4-banger m10…
I'd throw in the manual gearbox, the noise, vibration, smell, and being able to see the mechanical workings as well. We can get a punchy, lightweight vehicle with an EV conversion, but as you've heard from others, that leaves something to be desired
AKA the 4 speed transmission I mentioned :)
But yes, the vibration, sound, and feel of the incredibly simple (as in stripped down, not unsophisticated) mechanics around you all very much contribute to the special feeling of driving these cars.
My 1976 BMW 2002 is actually my first car. I used to drive it to high school more than half my life ago, and I still drive it today. I’ve driven some other classic cars, luxury and sport, and simply nothing feels like a 2002. Just a beautiful, balanced, timeless design.
Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
The current admin is actively hostile to EVs, but I think the real problem was the chicken and egg issue of charging stations: they wouldn't be built because there wasn't enough demand for them and EVs would be limited in sales because they wouldn't have chargers to use on the road. This is where Tesla made a huge difference with Supercharger stations. I am no fan of Elon, but that work was fundamental in making EVs…
Nevertheless, there seems to be zero buy-in from commercial players in the US. It's such a weird uphill battle. I live in the US, but every summer I spend a month in Sweden, and the past two years I've rented EVs for the entire stay, and the buildout of chargers these past 4-5 years has been astonishing . It's gone from crap to fantastic in a very short time, and that's without massive government intervention or subs…
The other part is that a lot of money is made in the production and sale of fuel and those players have significant influence in how things work -- this is evident in the Trump admin's demonization of renewables and going all in on fossil fuels.
Watching all this craziness from the sidelines is crazymaking and heartbreaking. We can only keep China at bay for so long, and then when the dam breaks the domestic auto makers are going to go down, along with the whole economic ecosystem that supports them. It doesn't have to be this way...
Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
#328Mercedes acquired Yasa (UK) couple of years ago and now getting up to the speed in the production. Here is a nice video that explains axial flux motors with a factory visit https://youtu.be/B2Hl4c1iZK0?si=VfDYARyuaPVj1nKm They are so, so, small.
I was curious how this thing works and asked Claude to visualize it -- mostly to see how good Fable is and I have to say, what it made was good enough for me to get a gist of it. Posted it here https://azimi.me/axial-flux-motor-explainer/
Is that right? One could get ~200hp from something the size and mass of a small dog?
Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
Great video! So it looks like axial flux, the OG was introduced in 1820 something and it wasn't easy to manufacture. So radio flux came after that and has been around ever since. So axial flux is making its come back this year! The video is very interesting too about decompounding returns when the motor is less with the other things need to weigh less too. Especially the bit about potentially not needing brakes in th…
Also found it fascinating, although on the discussion about brakes I thought about how regen braking turns off in my EV when the battery is full, because there is no where to put the power. So you either keep some of the battery always available to soak up braking energy (and hope people never charge to full at the top of a mountain and exhaust the buffer) or you include a set of normal brakes for when regen is not p…
Re: Mercedes‑Benz starts large‑scale production of electric axial flux motor
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
The new season of Formula One feels (unfortunately) like Formula E!
It would be awesome if they would implement a crude rule: no computers. You can use a computer to design the car--CAD/CAM/CAE are all fine--but no stored program computers are allowed in the race car. I think that would improve F1 tremendously.
I want to see F1 car design be about function/performance above all. I want to see awesome gadgets using insanely clever design. Then ideally that design should influence built items in the rest of the world.
F1 used to be influential in creating and developing high technology. Now it seems to be about gathering high technology from elsewhere so as to meet the insane regulations most efficiently.