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Trump fires NSF's oversight board

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Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#321

Post by OxO4 »

juniperus wrote: post #272
epistasis wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government is not currently in a state of following the law or constitution. People get fired, and if authority was not there, a lawsuit 9-18 months later might rectify it, and in the meantime the fired employee has moved on. DOGE cuts were extreme, capricious, and the only rhyme or reason was to try to hyperpoliticize the science to meet what people were guessing that Trump would want. On the grant side, they…

I'm in academia, so NSF cuts are very misguided in my view, and hopefully will be reversed in the next administration. But the first two sentences of your post immediately contradict one another. You say America is in a state of lawlessness, and then immediately describe the American legal system. So that's exactly what following the law in America has always meant. America is a common law country, not a civil law co…

People like you sanewashing the actions of this admin are a major part of the problem.

Even if this were how the system was designed, it is time to acknowledge that it is fundamentally broken and needs change. It is mind boggling that the response to these issues amounts to WONTFIX.

Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#322

Post by kasey_junk »

nixon_why69 wrote: post #311
kasey_junk wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Soviet Union had great math & science research infrastructure and leaders who were science and technologists. They still had political pressure that conflicted with science. Why would we think China is any different?

You don't have to be convinced. I'm in Wuhan right now and self-driving cars and autonomous delivery vehicles are pretty common. They have nice electric Buicks here because the local org that worked with GM for the brand has surpassed GM at building Buicks. The US of 2026 has specific ideological pressure against scientists that is not nearly as bad as the cultural revolution but in the same direction. It's not about…

My priors are that you can’t remove political pressure on science _anywhere_ it’s a natural outcome of humans doing science. And I’m responding to the specific idea that technical political leaders are immune from that. History shows that’s not true.

Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#323

Post by stogot »

nixon_why69 wrote: post #304
stogot wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article talked about the board pushing back on political decisions. Do you really think Chinese oversight boards push back on political officers? Do they take to the press to lambast Xi?

Politics are different in China, certainly nobody is going to the press. But they also have a culture where lots of politicians have technical degrees, and they've gotten better results as far as government and science. You don't have the problem of "global warming isn't real for cultural reasons" in the first place.

Right, terrible example. China is the largest emitter of global warming gases and it’s growing. They don’t care for economic reasons, just like other nations don’t care for cultural reasons. Compared to democracies though, China also has added internal, domestically approved genocides, jail time for Hong Kong dissidents, IP theft, external influence ops, and are currently rattling to destroy a neighboring democracy. But I’m glad to hear their middle managers are actually technical. That’s good news for everyone.

Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#324

Post by bigyabai »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #242
bigyabai wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not surprising. But some of your statements are hard to square with the current circumstances, so help us understand where you're coming from: > When he says "I will end the war in three days", I think he genuinely believes it. So I think he is genuine. This is what Putin said about his "Special military operation" that has stretched on for 4 years now. Hostomel turned into an irreversible, taxing conflict on the…

Largely agreed but if one expects any sort of escalation with China that actually makes this (and Ukraine) quite useful by providing real world data about the recent technological changes to war as well as serving as a minor stress test for the military's organizational structures. To be clear I don't mean to imply that as being even remotely reasonable as justification.

Kinda? The US already has materiel and operators on the ground in Ukraine and exercising with NATO. This is mostly practice for the US Navy, and the PLAN looks nothing like the IRGC's Navy. One's in the missile age, the other uses FACs with .50 cals as their anti-shipping weapon.

The other US forces like the Army, Marines and Special Forces/Pararescue really really risk attriting and dulling themselves if CENTCOM demands more troops.

Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#325

Post by trinsic2 »

epistasis wrote: post #250
trinsic2 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not getting how trump can fire anyone? Does he have the authority to do that?

The US government is not currently in a state of following the law or constitution. People get fired, and if authority was not there, a lawsuit 9-18 months later might rectify it, and in the meantime the fired employee has moved on. DOGE cuts were extreme, capricious, and the only rhyme or reason was to try to hyperpoliticize the science to meet what people were guessing that Trump would want. On the grant side, they…

I'm still not quite sure how anybody is required to follow an order of someone that doesn't have authority to do what they're doing.

What happens if you refuse to be let go by someone that doesn't have authority?

Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#326

Post by Tadpole9181 »

trinsic2 wrote: post #325
epistasis wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government is not currently in a state of following the law or constitution. People get fired, and if authority was not there, a lawsuit 9-18 months later might rectify it, and in the meantime the fired employee has moved on. DOGE cuts were extreme, capricious, and the only rhyme or reason was to try to hyperpoliticize the science to meet what people were guessing that Trump would want. On the grant side, they…

I'm still not quite sure how anybody is required to follow an order of someone that doesn't have authority to do what they're doing. What happens if you refuse to be let go by someone that doesn't have authority?

You're arrested for trespassing. Remember, the president also effectively controls the security team, the DoJ and the military. It's just a king again, and you're asking the sane question:

"Why would anyone follow the mad, old king?"

And the answer is around the same:

"Because he will hurt you."

Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#327

Post by Tadpole9181 »

juniperus wrote: post #282
xethos wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

War can only legally be declared by Congress. America is currently at war with Iran. Is the current war legal? I would say no. That doesn't mean it's not happening, just that the law was ignored.

well that specific scenario is its own mess of competing authorities. Theoretically, the president is commander in chief, so he controls the armed forces. But congress has the authority to make a declaration of war. But the president as commander in chief can direct troops for national security or other purposes. Military action can happen without a war being declared. It becomes a bit of a game of semantics because…

Oh good God, I can't listen to this intellectual rot a single second longer.

This is not a gray area unless you're intentionally pretending to be an idiot to steal power.

Congress is the only branch allowed to declare war. Taking targeted military actions against another country repeatedly on their own soil with no provocation is not a "special military action" it's a fucking war.

It's not funny or coy or clever to pretend otherwise. The intent is abundantly clear and it is abundantly clear it is being violated.

Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#328

Post by trinsic2 »

Tadpole9181 wrote: post #326
trinsic2 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not quite sure how anybody is required to follow an order of someone that doesn't have authority to do what they're doing. What happens if you refuse to be let go by someone that doesn't have authority?

You're arrested for trespassing. Remember, the president also effectively controls the security team, the DoJ and the military. It's just a king again, and you're asking the sane question: "Why would anyone follow the mad, old king?" And the answer is around the same: "Because he will hurt you."

> You're arrested for trespassing

By who? and on what grounds?

The only people that have authority to fire are the people that are heads of that institution.

The president has no connection to this institution. He does not have any power in this context. His power stops at the federal level and even then his power is limited. Nobody has to abide by his orders. Yet, there are plenty of people doing so. Im not understanding why.

If he doesn't have authority to do what he is doing, nobody has to follow any of his actions. In fact I think there is an obligation not to follow the orders of a criminal.

Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#329

Post by adjejmxbdjdn »

trinsic2 wrote: post #325
epistasis wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government is not currently in a state of following the law or constitution. People get fired, and if authority was not there, a lawsuit 9-18 months later might rectify it, and in the meantime the fired employee has moved on. DOGE cuts were extreme, capricious, and the only rhyme or reason was to try to hyperpoliticize the science to meet what people were guessing that Trump would want. On the grant side, they…

I'm still not quite sure how anybody is required to follow an order of someone that doesn't have authority to do what they're doing. What happens if you refuse to be let go by someone that doesn't have authority?

They flip a bit in the DB that makes you an ex exmployee and your badge doesn’t work, you can’t login to systems, your emails don’t work, etc.

It’s not that hard.

To prevent it, someone in IT would have to actively prevent bosses from having those kind of admin privileges which in itself would be illegal.

Re: Trump fires NSF's oversight board

#330

Post by trinsic2 »

juniperus wrote: post #272
epistasis wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US government is not currently in a state of following the law or constitution. People get fired, and if authority was not there, a lawsuit 9-18 months later might rectify it, and in the meantime the fired employee has moved on. DOGE cuts were extreme, capricious, and the only rhyme or reason was to try to hyperpoliticize the science to meet what people were guessing that Trump would want. On the grant side, they…

I'm in academia, so NSF cuts are very misguided in my view, and hopefully will be reversed in the next administration. But the first two sentences of your post immediately contradict one another. You say America is in a state of lawlessness, and then immediately describe the American legal system. So that's exactly what following the law in America has always meant. America is a common law country, not a civil law co…

Im not quite sure what you are getting at. Its true we are a common law country, but then what? Finish your thought.
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