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Coding agents could make free software matter again

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Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#321
post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a lawyer, but I read the decision, and how is this section not a ruling on fair use? “To summarize the analysis that now follows, the use of the books at issue to train Claude and its precursors was exceedingly transformative and was a fair use under Section 107 of the Copyright Act. And, the digitization of the books purchased in print form by Anthropic was also a fair use but not for the same reason as appl…

There's two parts here. The first: > it was a fair use because all Anthropic did was replace the print copies it had purchased for its central library It is only fair use where Anthropic had already purchased a license to the work. Which has zero to do with scraping - a purchase was made, an exchange of value, and that comes with rights. The second, which involves a section of the judgement a little before your quote…

I believe you are misinterpreting the ruling. Remember that a copyright claim must inherently argue that copies of the work are being made. To that end, the case analyzes multiple "copies" alleged to have been made.

1) "Copies used to train specific LLMs", for which the ruling is:

> The copies used to train specific LLMs were justified as a fair use.

> Every factor but the nature of the copyrighted work favors this result.

> The technology at issue was among the most transformative many of us will see in our lifetimes.

Notable here is that all of the "copies used to train specific LLMs" were copies made from books Anthropic purchased. But also of note is that Anthropic need not have purchased them, as long as they had obtained the original sources legally. The case references the Google Books lawsuit as an example of something Anthropic could have done to avoid pirating the books they did pirate where in Google obtained the original materials on loan from willing and participating libraries, and did not purchase them.

2) "The copies used to convert purchased print library copies into digital library copies", where again the ruling is:

> justified, too, though for a different fair use. The first factor strongly

> favors this result, and the third favors it, too. The fourth is neutral. Only

> the second slightly disfavors it. On balance, as the purchased print copy was

> destroyed and its digital replacement not redistributed, this was a

> fair use.

Here one might argue where the use of GPL code is different in that in making the copy, no original was destroyed. But it's also very likely that this wouldn't apply at all in the case of GPL code because there was also no original physical copy to convert into a digital format. The code was already digitally available.

3) "The downloaded pirated copies used to build a central library" where the court finds clearly against fair use.

4) "And, as for any copies made from central library copies but not used for training" where as you note Judge Alsup declined to rule. But notice particularly that this is referring to copies made FROM the central library AND NOT for the purposes of training an LLM. The copies made from purchased materials to build the central library in the first place were already deemed fair use. And making copies from the central library to train an LLM from those copies was also determined to be fair use.The copies obtained by piracy were not. But for uses not pertaining to the training of an LLM, the judge is declining to make a ruling here because there was not enough evidence about what books from the central library were copied for what purposes and what the source of those copies was. As he says in the ruling:

> Anthropic is not entitled to an order blessing all copying “that Anthropic has ever made after obtaining the data,” to use its words

This declination applies both to the purchased and pirated sources, because it's about whether making additional copies from your central library copies (which themselves may or may not have been fair use), automatically qualifies as fair use. And this is perfectly reasonable. You have a right as part of fair use to make a copy of a TV broadcast to watch at a later time on your DVR. But having a right to make that copy does not inherently mean that you also have a right to make a copy from that copy for any other purposes. You may (and almost certainly do) have a right to make a copy to move it from your DVR to some other storage medium. You may not (and almost certainly do not) have a right to make a copy and give it to your friend.

At best, an argument that GPL software wouldn't be covered under the same considerations of fair use that this case considers would require arguing that the copies of GPL code obtained by Anthropic were not obtained legally. But that's likely going to be a very hard argument to make given that GPL code is freely distributed all over the place with no attempts made to restrict who can access that code. In fact, GPL code demands that if you distribute the software derived from that code, you MUST make copies of the code available to anyone you distribute the software to. Any AI trainer would simply need to download Linux or emacs and the GPL requires the person they downloaded that software from to provide them with the source code. How could you then argue that the original source from which copies were made was obtained illicitly when the terms of downloading the freely available software mandated that they be given a copy?

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#322
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually read the text of the GPL? > This License acknowledges your rights of fair use or other equivalent, as provided by copyright law. It is legitimate to acquire GPL software. The requirements of the license only occur if you're distributing the work AND fair use does not apply. Training certainly doesn't count as distribution, so the buck passes to inference, which leaves us dealing with substantial sim…

There is the clean room problem though. If a human reads GPL code and outputs a recreation of that code (derivative work) using what they learned - that is illegal. If an AI reads GPL code and outputs a recreation of that code using what it "learned" - it's not illegal? If that is the case, then copyright holds no weight any more. I should be allowed to train an LLM on decompiled firmware (say, Playstation, Switch, i…

> If that is the case, then copyright holds no weight any more. I should be allowed to train an LLM on decompiled firmware (say, Playstation, Switch, iPhone) in countries where decompilation is legal - then have the LLM produce equivalent firmware that I later use to build an emulator (or competing open source firmware).

It's funny you mention that, because one of the biggest fair use cases that effectively cemented "fair use" for emulators is Sony Computer Entertainment Inc v. Connectix Corp.[1] where the copying of PlayStaion BIOS files for the purposes of reverse engineering and creating an emulator was explicitly ruled to be fair use, including running that code through a disassembler.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Computer_Entertainment,_I....

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#323

> Why does this matter? Because the “open source” rebrand wasn’t just a marketing change — it was a philosophical amputation. I cringe whenever I see such an AI generated sentence and unfortunately it devalues the article

Yes, after two of those I stopped reading.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#324
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, why use it on Oracle's hardware? By the way Linux does it, but then again Oracle has its own distro.

So wait, sparc solaris is the only production unix with hardware memory tagging but also linux has it? Are we talking strict SUS compliant systems (current or former because for some reason solaris is no longer listed as such despite ostensibly still being compliant unless the SRUs have seriously FUBARed some things) or unices in general? because I'd argue anyone running SUS compliant systems out of anything other th…

We are talking about SPARC ADI, still sold by Oracle and Fujistsu.

https://www.oracle.com/servers/sparc

Linux while not being UNIX, does support it as Oracle upstreamed SPARC ADI support during the brief time they had Oracle Linux support for SPARC.

https://docs.kernel.org/arch/sparc/adi.html

Now why someone would use unsupported OpenBSD on SPARC for the kinds of clients that pay for this stuff, beats me.

Assuming it does even support SPARC ADI.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#325
post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think there's no meaningful case by the letter of the law that use of training data that include GPL-licensed software in models that comprise the core component of modern LLMs doesn't obligate every producer of such models to make both the models and the software stack supporting them available under the same terms. Why do you think "fair use" doesn't apply in this case? The prior Bartz vs Anthropic ruling laid…

You sound like you're citing the general Internet understanding of "fair use", which seems to amount to "I can do whatever I like to any copyrighted content as long as maybe I mutilate it enough and shout 'FAIR USE!' loudly enough." On the real measures of "fair use", at least in the US: https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/four-factors/ I would contend that it absolutely face plants on all four measures. T…

I'm not really sure why you think my comment specifically citing the recent rulings by Judge Alsup and also the prior history with respect to the Google Books project is somehow declaring "I can do whatever I like to any copyrighted content", but I assure you I'm not. I'm very specifically talking about the various cases that have come about in the digital age dealing with fair use as it has been interpreted by US courts to apply to the use of computers to create copies of works for the purposes of creating other works.

I'm referring to the long history of carefully threaded fair use rulings and settlements, many of which we as an industry have benefitted greatly from. From determinations that cloning a BIOS can be fair use (see IBM PC bios cloning, but also Sony v. Connectix), or that cloning an entire API for the purposes of creating a parallel competitive product (Google v. Oracle), or digitizing books for the purposes of making those books searchable and even displaying portions of those books to users (Authors Guild v. Google) or even your cable company offering you "remote DVR" copying of broadcast TV (20th Century Fox v. Cablevision). Time and again the courts have found that copyright, and especially copyright with respect to digital transformations is far more limited than large corporations would prefer. Further they have found in plenty of cases that even a direct 1:1 copy of source can be fair use, let alone copies which are "transformative" as LLM training was found to be in Bartz.

Realistically, I don't see how anyone can have watched the various copyright cases that have been decided in the digital age, and seen the battles that the EFF (and a good part of the tech industry) have waged to reduce the strength of copyright and not also see how AI training can very easily fit within that same framework.

Not to cast aspersions on my fellow geeks and nerds, but it has been very interesting to me to watch the "hacker" world move from "information wants to be free" to "copyright maximalists" once it was their works that were being copied in ways they didn't like. For an industry that has brought about (and heavily promoted and supported) things like DeCSS, BitTorrent, Handbrake, Jellyfin/Plex, numerous emulators, WINE, BIOS and hardware cloning, ad blockers, web scrapers and many other things that copyright owners have been very unhappy about, it's very strange to see this newfound respect for the sanctity of copyright.

> I can easily make a case that "buying a copy" in the case of a GPL-2 codebase is "agreeing to the license" and that such an agreement could easily say "anything trained on this must also be released as GPL-2".

And I would argue that obtaining a legal copy of the GPL source to a program requires no such agreement. By downloading a copy of a GPLed program I am entitled by the terms under which that software was distributed to obtain a copy of the source code. I do not have to agree to any other terms in order to obtain that source code, downloading from someone authorized to distribute that code is in and of itself sufficient to entitle me to that source code. You can not, by the very terms of the GPL itself deny me a copy of the source code for GPL software you have distributed to me, even if you believe I intend to make distributions that are not GPL compliant. You can decline to distribute the software to me in the first place, but once you have distributed it to me, I am legally entitled to a copy of the source code. From there, now that I have a legal copy, the question becomes is making additional copies for the purposes of training an AI model fair use? So far, the most definitive case we have on the matter (Bartz) says yes it is.

So either we have to make the case that the original copy was somehow acquired from a source not authorized to make that copy, or we have to argue that the output of the AI model or the AI model is itself infringing. Given the ruling that copies made for training an AI model was ruled "exceedingly transformative and was a fair use under Section 107 of the Copyright Act"[1] it seems unlikely that the AI model itself is going to be found to be infringing. That leaves the output of the model itself, which Bartz does not rule on, as the authors never alleged the output of the model was infringing. GPL software authors might be able to prevail on that point, but they would have a pretty uphill battle I think in demonstrating that the model generated infringing output and not simply functional necessary code that isn't covered by copyright. The ability of code to be subject to copyright has long been a sort of careful balance between protecting a larger creative idea, and also not simply walling off whole avenues of purely functional decisions from all competitors.

[1]: https://admin.bakerlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/ECF-23...

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hope. But you need to think realistically. Not hopefully. Trendlines will continue. Even the one for greenhouse gases. That is the most realistic scenario. In fact the trendline for greenhouse gases is even stronger than AI. I am far more confident about greenhouse gases continuing to rise than I am for AI. Telling me how another trendline points to a shitty reality doesn't change the fact that the shitty reality…

we are probably not going to keep pumping CO2 out at the rate of the worst case scenario of business because believe it or not companies are aware there is little profit to be made from dead consumers. The realistic scenarios are still pretty bad but less so. Just assuming LLMs will scale to the point of being more useful as all these companies are banking on is not unfounded but it's also just an educated guess beca…

Look up the tragedy of the commons. It’s revelatory. If companies know it’s suicide why haven’t they stopped yesterday? If they knew yesterday and could’ve stopped yesterday then it’s clear that there’s no precedence indicating they will stop in the future.

The question is why? Tragedy of the commons.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#327
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Broadly speaking, GPL is a license that has specific provisions about creating derivative software from the licensed work, and just saying "fair use" doesn't exempt you from those provisions. Broadly speaking, yes it does. The whole point of fair use is that you don’t need a license.

Claiming LLMs are fair use is ridiculous bordering on ignorant or disingenuous. Here’s the 4 part test from 17 U.S.C. § 107: 1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; Fail. The use is to make trillions of dollars and be maximally disruptive. 2. the nature of the copyrighted work; Fail. In many cases at least, the copy writte…

> Fail. The use is to make trillions of dollars and be maximally disruptive.

Fair use has repeatedly been found even in cases where the copies were used for commercial purposes. See Sony v. Connectix for example, where the cloning and disassembly of the PlayStation BIOS for the purposes of making a commercially sold (at retail, in a box) emulator of a then currently sold game console was determined to be fair use.

> Fail. In many cases at least, the copy written code is commercial or otherwise supports livelihoods; and is the result much high skill labor with the express stipulation for reciprocity.

Again, see Sony V. Connectix where the sales of PlayStation consoles support the livelihoods and skilled labor of Sony engineers.

> Fail. They use all of it.

And again, see Sony V. Connectix, where the entire BIOS was copied again and again until a clone could be written that sought to reproduce all the functionality of the real BIOS. Or see Google V. Oracle where cloning the entire Java API for a competing commercial product was also deemed fair use. Or the Google Books lawsuits, where cloning entire books for the purposes of making them searchable online was deemed fair use. Or see any of the various time/format shifting cases over the years (Cassette tapes, VCRs, DVRs, MP3 encoders, DVD ripping etc) where making whole and complete copies of works is deemed fair use.

> Fail to the extreme. There is already measurable decline in these markets. The leaders explicitly state that they want to put knowledge workers out of business.

Again, see Sony v. Connectix where the commercial product deemed to be fair use was directly competing with an actively sold video game console. Copyright protects the rights of creators to exploit their own works, it does not protect them against any and all forms of competition.

Or perhaps instead of referring you to the history of legislation around copyright in the digital age, I should instead simply point you at Judge Alsup's ruling in the Bartz case where he details exactly why the facts of the case and prior case law find that training an AI on copyrighted material is fair use [1]. Of particular interest to you might be the fact that each of the 4 factors is not a simple "pass/fail" metric, but a weighing of relative merits. For example, when examining factor 1, Judge Alsup writes:

> That the accused is a commercial entity is indicative, not dispositive. That

> the accused stands to benefit is likewise indicative. But what matters most

> is whether the format change exploits anything the Copyright Act reserves to

> the copyright owner.

[1]: https://admin.bakerlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/ECF-23...

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#328
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wouldn't that be like some company using gpl licensed code to host a code generator for something? At least in a legal interpretation. Or is that different?

I mean, is the case you're making that you can run a SaaS business on GPL-derived code without fulfilling GPL obligations because you're not distributing a binary?

Yes, that's exactly what people do and did. That 'loophole' is the whole reason people came up with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Affero_General_Public_Lice...

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#329
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as they don't distribute the model's weights, even a strict interpretation of the GPL should be fine. Same reason Google doesn't have to upstream changes to the Linux kernel they only deploy in-house.

How about AGPL?

Sure, that one was specifically designed to close that loophole.

Re: Coding agents could make free software matter again

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, a lot of open source caused other people to lose their jobs too, all pre AI. So what goes around comes around. The Free Software movement was from day one built on cloning proprietary programs - UNIX was a commercial OS that AT&T sold, the early Linux desktop environments all looked exactly like a mashup of Windows 95 and commercial DEs, etc. Every commercial UNIX got wiped out except Apple, do you think that d…

Fwiw, AIX and to a far lesser extent Solaris still exist. I'm not exactly sure why people are using them (AIX I can maybe understand because "no one got fired for buying IBM" or whatever but there really isn't any excuse to be running Solaris nowadays since ZFS runs on Linux and and 2 of the BSD based systems and oracle seems desperate to let it die)

Solaris lives on as Illumos. Wherever the Solaris developers go, they build on that. Currently they are on it at Oxide.

I'm sure Oracle milks commercial Solaris efficiently, but I imagine it's hard to find new customers for it.

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