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Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

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Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

#321

Post by tovej »

utopiah wrote: post #268
tovej wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not. You're operating under the assumption that all open math problems are difficult and novel. This particular problem was about improving the lower bound for a function tracking a property of hypergraphs (undirected graphs where edges can contain more than two vertices). Both constructing hypergraphs (sets) and lower bounds are very regular, chore type tasks that are common in maths. In other words, there's p…

> nice that the LLMs solved something for once. That sentence alone needs unpacking IMHO, namely that no LLM suddenly decided that today was the day it would solve a math problem. Instead a couple of people who love mathematics, doing it either for fun or professionally, directly ask a model to solve a very specific task that they estimated was solvable. The LLM itself was fed countless related proofs. They then guid…

I 100% agree. The LLM was just used to autocomplete a ready-made strategy.

Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

#322

Post by qsera »

timschmidt wrote: post #312
qsera wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is whether an entity that can "feel" is in the loop and how much they have contributed to it even if it is a remix.

I think there's demonstrably very little difference at all between human and AI outputs, and that's exactly what freaks people out about it. Else they wouldn't be so obsessed with trying to find and define what makes it different. The Thesis of Everything is a Remix is that there is no difference in how any culture is produced. Different models will have a different flavor to their output in the same way as different…

> demonstrably very little difference at all between human and AI outputs

Is there "demonstrably" a lot of difference between Shakespeare and an HN comment?

The point is exactly that there is no such difference. And that it enables slop to be sold as art. And that exactly is the danger. But another point is we had the even before LLMs. And LLMs just make it more explicit and makes it possible at scale.

Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

#323

Post by anal_reactor »

bdbdbdb wrote: post #314
qnleigh wrote: post #288

I am kind of amazed at how many commenters respond to this result by confidently asserting that LLMs will never generate 'truly novel' ideas or problem solutions. > AI is a remixer; it remixes all known ideas together. It won't come up with new ideas > it's not because the model is figuring out something new > LLMs will NEVER be able to do that, because it doesn't exist It's not enough to say 'it will never be able t…

I guess when it can't be tripped up by simple things like multiplying numbers, counting to 100 sequentially or counting letters in a string without writing a python program, then I might believe it. Also no matter how many math problems it solves it still gets lost in a codebase

Arguments like "but AI cannot reliably multiply numbers" fundamentally misunderstand how AI works. AI cannot do basic math not because AI is stupid, but because basic math is an inherently difficult task for otherwise smart AI. Lots of human adults can do complex abstract thinking but when you ask them to count it's "one... two... three... five... wait I got lost".

Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

#324

Post by qsera »

charcircuit wrote: post #309
qsera wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to link some?

I think they would be hard to find due to how many posts exists along with how things aren't as funny the second time around.

funny things are funny the n-th time around. Or may be it was just not funny and just something new for you..

Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

#325

Post by benterix »

tornikeo wrote: post #308
qnleigh wrote: post #288

I am kind of amazed at how many commenters respond to this result by confidently asserting that LLMs will never generate 'truly novel' ideas or problem solutions. > AI is a remixer; it remixes all known ideas together. It won't come up with new ideas > it's not because the model is figuring out something new > LLMs will NEVER be able to do that, because it doesn't exist It's not enough to say 'it will never be able t…

Beliefs are not rooted in facts. Beliefs are a part of you, and people aren't all that happy to say "this LLM is better than me"

I'm very happy to say calculators are far better than me in calculations (to a given precision). I'm happy to admit computers are so much better than me in so many aspects. And I have problem saying LLMs are very helpful tools able to generate output so much better than mine in almost every field of knowledge.

Yet, whenever I ask it to do something novel or creative, it falls very short. But humans are ingenious beasts and I'm sure or later they will design an architecture able to be creative - I just doubt it will be Transformer-based, given the results so far.

Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

#327

Post by staticassertion »

famouswaffles wrote: post #315
staticassertion wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually still don't see the source for them trying several times, but we can take that for granted. Regardless, as I said: 1. It's labeled as "moderately interesting" 2. They said that they expect an expert could solve it in 1-3 months 3. They had already come up with the solution that the AI had but weren't convinced it would have worked So how big was the gap here, do you think?

Also, the full write up does not say the researchers solved it.

> I had previously wondered if the AI’s approach might be possible, but it seemed hard to work out.

They didn't solve it, that's fair. They did consider the approach already.

Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

#328

Post by staticassertion »

famouswaffles wrote: post #305
staticassertion wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually still don't see the source for them trying several times, but we can take that for granted. Regardless, as I said: 1. It's labeled as "moderately interesting" 2. They said that they expect an expert could solve it in 1-3 months 3. They had already come up with the solution that the AI had but weren't convinced it would have worked So how big was the gap here, do you think?

Yes, a "moderately interesting" Open problem. I can't think of any chores that would take an expert months to complete. I can't think of any chores that I've completed but was then 'unconvinced could work'. Please sit down and think about what you are saying here. Are we still talking about chores ? One of the more strange phenomena with machines getting better and the incessant need (seemingly driven by human except…

Writing a complex parser or certainly a compiler is a 1 - 3 month project, for example.

Again, I'm not trying to downplay this, but to frame this accurately. I think an AI being able to build a parser/ compiler is cool too.

> One of the more strange phenomena with machines getting better and the incessant need (seemingly driven by human exceptionalism) to downplay each result, is that you just end up belittling humans in the process.

I don't believe in human exceptionalism at all, don't attribute positions to me.

Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

#329

Post by keybored »

Validark wrote: post #33

I have long said I am an AI doubter until AI could print out the answers to hard problems or ones requiring tons of innovation. Assuming this is verified to be correct (not by AI) then I just became a believer. I would like to see a few more AI inventions to know for sure, but wow, it really is a new and exciting world. I really hope we use this intelligence resource to make the world better.

> I would like to see a few more AI inventions to know for sure, but wow, it really is a new and exciting world.

We already have a few years of experience with this.

> I really hope we use this intelligence resource to make the world better.

We already have a few years of experience with this.

Re: Epoch confirms GPT5.4 Pro solved a frontier math open problem

#330

Post by bluecalm »

qnleigh wrote: post #288

I am kind of amazed at how many commenters respond to this result by confidently asserting that LLMs will never generate 'truly novel' ideas or problem solutions. > AI is a remixer; it remixes all known ideas together. It won't come up with new ideas > it's not because the model is figuring out something new > LLMs will NEVER be able to do that, because it doesn't exist It's not enough to say 'it will never be able t…

>>AI is a remixer; it remixes all known ideas together. It won't come up with new ideas

I always found this argument very weak. There isn't that much truly new anyway. Creativity is often about mixing old ideas. Computers can do that faster than humans if they have a good framework. Especially with something as simple as math - limited set of formal rules and easy to verify results - I find a belief computers won't beat humans at it to be very naive.

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