Instead of spreading FUD about a protocol, one could stay in X11. If you don't need fractional scaling, HiDPI, real multi monitor support, mixed refresh rates, HDR, VRR, no tearing, and trust all your apps to not keylog everything, you can keep using any XOrg DE.
Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
321–330 of 502 posts
Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
#322XLibre exists simply because you can't just "force X11 to die" (Xorg's strategy) for as long as someone is willing to work on it. Now, there is a group of people who actively hate on XLibre sorely because it pretty much derailed such a plan. These people (who are no doubt sick in their heads) should focus their energy on improving Wayland rather than running hate campaigns on XLibre and its developers.
Majority of the community does not care about XLibre or its developers. They are free to work on whatever they want, but the ship has sailed and no one is coming back to X11 except some fringe groups which always exist.
Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
#323Aka why Linux on the desktop still sucks in 2026, sadly. Dave Plummer said the other day on Twitter: Linux is great, but on the desktop it's terrible.
Another perspective, even though anecdata: I’ve been daily driving a Linux desktop using Sway for five years and I can’t really complain. I haven’t experienced any of the issues TFA mentioned.
Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
#324Disclaimer: I don't have any skin in this game, I was fine with X11 and I am fine with Wayland, and I actually think it's nice to have both (and more, like Xlibre I think?). I understand complaints about systemd, I don't understand the complaints about Wayland. This whole article sounds like a big rant and doesn't seem to bring much information. > I also don't care for the "security" argument when parts of the core r…
The main problem of Wayland is fragmentation, technical problems could be solved by throwing work at it, but not as long as Wayland is "just a protocol". Designing it as a protocol (and with optional extensions on top!), instead of a traditional centralized implementation was a pretty stupid decision (and not just in hindsight). Instead of bundling forces to improve a single implementation like it was the case with X…
I feel like it's a philosophical question.
I like freedom and diversity. I don't want Linux to be like Windows or macOS with one window manager, one init system, etc. I like that people (and I) can experiment.
Is it less efficient than paying for Windows and macOS? Probably. Is it less polished? Certainly. But that's exactly what I want. If I wanted Windows or macOS, I would use Windows or macOS.
Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
#325Disclaimer: I don't have any skin in this game, I was fine with X11 and I am fine with Wayland, and I actually think it's nice to have both (and more, like Xlibre I think?). I understand complaints about systemd, I don't understand the complaints about Wayland. This whole article sounds like a big rant and doesn't seem to bring much information. > I also don't care for the "security" argument when parts of the core r…
> > I also don't care for the "security" argument when parts of the core reference implementation are written in a memory-unsafe language. > Doesn't sound like a super informed way to look at security (not even mentioning that Wayland was started in 2008, and Rust was not a thing). One can also say that "as long as you run X11, there is no need to think about security because X11 just defeats it all". I think the arg…
> Most commonly, as long as processes can read each other's memory/configuration/etc.
And there is no point is working on the Desktop security as long as X11 defeats it all.
> if it seems to be worth so little
I, for one, value the security standpoint.
Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
That post is 3 years old, so basically around 1 year into the Steam Deck's release.
And yet, Cities Skylines still (last tried: about 2 months ago) crashes for me when I try to load it in Wayland on Fedora, which has removed Xorg from its updates. Wayland has broken dozens of my Steam games.
I just played Skylines last night via Proton-GE. AMD GPU. Fedora 43. Gnome.
Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
#327Disclaimer: I don't have any skin in this game, I was fine with X11 and I am fine with Wayland, and I actually think it's nice to have both (and more, like Xlibre I think?). I understand complaints about systemd, I don't understand the complaints about Wayland. This whole article sounds like a big rant and doesn't seem to bring much information. > I also don't care for the "security" argument when parts of the core r…
> I actually think it's nice to have both Options that are equivalent enough for most end users just cause confusion. There are also too many distros, and the Gnome vs. KDE competition set desktop Linux back another 10 years. That's three dimensions of big, important choices with not much downside if you pick the happy path and a whole lot of downside if you don't.
The very reason I like Linux is for this diversity. I genuinely don't really get your point of view, which I actually see a lot, and which to me sounds like you want Windows or macOS, but somehow don't realise it.
Let's imagine this: some company makes an operating system based on Linux, in an efficient manner, by systematically choosing one way to solve a problem (one window manager, one init system, one file system, ...) and trying to meet the requirements of the mass to the detriment of freedom. It exists: it's called Android! Android is great, and it will eventually come to the Desktop for people who don't want Windows or macOS.
But fundamentally, what I call "Linux distributions" is not that. The whole point of Linux distributions, to me, is that even saying "GNU/Linux" doesn't work, because there are other userlands like "busybox/Linux"! Other init systems, other file systems, other windows managers, etc.
The cost of having a powerful core choosing "sane defaults" for the users (Windows, macOS, or similarly Android) is that it is very difficult to modify the system or even contribute to it. Look at e.g. GrapheneOS, an Android alternative (and which I use and love): it relies a lot on Google. Linux distributions are not like that: I can create my own Linux distribution as a weekend project.
Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
#328Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Man Windows(Pro) is just such a nice desktop and host now Windows is terrible relative to a recent version of GNOME on Wayland, slow, bloated, full of spyware and AI.
Just gonna jump in with the alternate view, if you like Windows desktop but not Windows, KDE is just amazing now. I didn’t enjoy it much in be KDE3 and 4 days but I’m loving Plasma 6.
KDE just feels like windows, and just as disjointed.
(To any devs that may read this: I acknowledge a LOT of development progress and features you all have added, it's just not my cup of tea!)
Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
#329Disclaimer: I don't have any skin in this game, I was fine with X11 and I am fine with Wayland, and I actually think it's nice to have both (and more, like Xlibre I think?). I understand complaints about systemd, I don't understand the complaints about Wayland. This whole article sounds like a big rant and doesn't seem to bring much information. > I also don't care for the "security" argument when parts of the core r…
> Who is forced to use it? Just use X11, as you said (many times) you do already. Recent versions of gnome session are compiled only with wayland support in archlinux. To change DE or distribution or use custom package is quite a stretch to call it's not forced.
But then it's not Wayland's fault: Gnome decided to move to it and stop supporting X.
I don't like systemd and the fact that mainstream distros push for it, but as a result I use a distro that gives me the choice (Gentoo). Who am I to tell the distro maintainer what they should do for free?
Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?
#330FWIW I recently switched full time to Linux and have had absolutely 0 problems with GNOME, Wayland and Fedora, though I am using an AMD GPU. wl-copy works fine, askpass works, copy and paste works, screen sharing with Google Meet works, drag and drop works. Using an iphone as a webcam works as does recording my screen. Most importantly using multiple monitors with fractional scaling works perfectly. AFIAK this is not…
It's pretty funny to see "copy/paste works" and "drag and drop works" presented like some kind of win. That's the absolute baseline for a desktop OS.. since at least Windows 3.x.
Windows, bloated and ad-riddled as it is now, never had to be defended on the basis that basic GUI behavior still functioned.
But this year surely will be the year of the Linux desktop!