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Java 26 is here

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Re: Java 26 is here

#321

Post by peterashford »

steve-atx-7600 wrote: post #268
beachy wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if at we are standing looking at the smoking field of programming languages created over the last 50 years and gazing at the final survivors, of which Java is definitely one. Why would anyone create a new language now? The existing ones are "good enough", and without a body of examples for LLMs to train on, a new language has little chance getting traction. I learned IBM /360 assembler when I started in comp…

Most of my 20 years of experience is Java. Now 3 years into a new job mostly using Python to build microservices. I feel much more productive using Python (plus uv, ruff and mypy for fast repeatable package management, linting and type checking). I see Python having a trajectory to keep improving and gaining more adoption - eg Python keeps growing in popularity https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2025/technology/ . It wi…

Python's great until you have to refactor a large code base

Re: Java 26 is here

#322

Post by peterashford »

gf000 wrote: post #208
wbl wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you want sum types which admittedly Go doesn't have in a matchable way. However complex error recovery is an anti pattern for Go.

> However complex error recovery is an anti pattern for Go. Bit of snark from my side, but that's exactly what makes it less good of a fit for "industry purposes". Go's error handling is possibly the worst out of any "modern" language, it basically copied C's errno which is not something you should have ever done.

This was exactly my experience when I first read about Go. I was so excited until I found they were repeating the c experience of check every bloody return value separately. That was the worst feature of c - why copy it

Re: Java 26 is here

#323

Post by peterashford »

dinkumthinkum wrote: post #191
kyrra wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the GP, but for really large code bases, Go is missing a few features that I've noticed: 1) No immutable types. My work team is a huge user of immutable data stuctures in Java to make sure data passed around to other teams isn't changed. Go doesn't really have a good way to do this. 2) Refactoring can be really annoying (or at least really noisy) because of public/private being defined by capitalization of method…

This is not a dig at Go and this will be controversial but I so struggle to see what problem or area Go is solving outside of CSP. It's a nice language it just feels far too simple and I am really convinced of it as a systems language over Modern C++ and if you want that alternative then we have our rather oxidized friend that seems to more substantial. That's just my take.

I code Go at work. I've been using it for just over 3 years. I really like it. I prefer Java, but Go is a much more ergonomic C and its a very pragmatic language. Except for the *%!@ error system, that can burn in hell.

Re: Java 26 is here

#324

Post by peterashford »

nradov wrote: post #74
HendrikHensen wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "better than Go for industry purposes"? I don't understand what "industry purposes" means and in what aspects Java is better than Go in your opinion (I can think of some myself, but I'm interested in your perspective).

Ya, that seems to be a misunderstanding. "Industry purposes" covers a huge range of stuff. Go is pretty good for systems programming where Java isn't really an option due to the fundamental limits imposed by garbage collection and lack of pointers. Java is pretty good for higher-level application development where occasional GC pauses are tolerable (the GC pauses are rare and fast now, but they still rule out using J…

Go's GC is orders of magnitude behind Java's.

Re: Java 26 is here

#325

Post by peterashford »

Mawr wrote: post #288
deepsun wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about Go's garbage collector doesn't have pauses? AFAIK they are worse than modern Java's garbage collector [1]. I'm not sure it's even better than Java's, especially for modern ZGC (and you can choose your GC in Java). Definitely less configurable. I would say most of online comments about Java's GC are long outdated. For example, in web servers a lot of work is request-response, so it's convenient to u…

> I would say most of online comments about Java's GC are long outdated. They are not. Feel free to look up literally any half-decent benchmarks. If Java's on par or better than any other language of note, check the memory usage. It's standard for Java to have 5-20x the memory usage for about the same performance. The memory floor also seems to be in the hundreds of megabytes. Ridiculous. > For example, in web server…

No-one ever claimed that Java didn't use a lot of memory. The "comments about Java's GC" used to be about pauses, mainly. Java programmers don't claim that the JVM is conservative with memory use. That said, 5-20x.... nah. Maybe for a toy 'hello world' sized program, but not in real usage

Re: Java 26 is here

#326

Post by gf000 »

owlstuffing wrote: post #314
zadikian wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The error handling is like a systems language for sure, I'll agree on that. But where do Go's docs or founders call it a C replacement? gf000 asked where this is mentioned besides marketing, but I don't see it in the marketing either.

Now that Go is styled as a Java competitor its framing is different. But here's an old golang.org archive for fun: https://web.archive.org/web/20091113154831/http://golang.org... The main page title *Go: a systems programming language* It still sports all the low-level stuff too, pointer arithmetic and all.

And a fat runtime with a garbage collector. Like people can write all sorts of programs with a GC, that was never the issue.

But then just stay truthful, otherwise C# is also a system PL.

Re: Java 26 is here

#327

Post by c0balt »

rkomorn wrote: post #319
c0balt wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm not. Through university (and even before) I have access to their full suite. I have tried to use PyCharm, GoLand and Idea. Idea was useful for Java but felt quite slow and even with vim bindings was a pain to navigate. Learning the shortcuts helped but it never got quite as fast as helix/vim for general editing (especially as my work usually is a polyglot). It might be the best for Java (compared to eclipse o…

GoStorm?

Thanks for noticing the typo, must've mixed up the PHP and Golang IDEs

Re: Java 26 is here

#328

Post by gf000 »

cmwelsh wrote: post #308
cess11 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone reads this and wonders what JBoss is, the contemporary variety is called WildFly and it is actually rather easy to install and play around with. https://www.wildfly.org/ I think this is an often overlooked solution to some of the problems we nowadays tend to approach the clown for. As for build systems, Maven is old and cranky but if something else replaces it, it will probably be quite similar anyway.

As you’re familiar with the JBoss space, why would someone use an enterprise container over a simple HTTP server (Tomcat, Jetty, etc)? Currently I’m trying to externalize as much as possible to the service mesh. I want teams to stand up a basic unencrypted HTTP server that accepts the company headers and just works with as minimal of a runtime as possible.

I wouldn't use application servers today, but they were solving many of the same issues as whole kubernetes clusters do, decades ago.

The Java (now Jakarta) EE standard on top is a good base for third party implementations to "speak a common language", e.g. it's not that hard to move between Quarkus/spring/micronaut etc, even if not all support the actual standard.

Re: Java 26 is here

#329

Post by gf000 »

phplovesong wrote: post #282
dzonga wrote: post #37

the people that work on Java & the JVM are very smart. it has become a best of breed language - hell its better than Go for industry purposes. the drawback with Java will always be the CULTURE - (maybe someone can insert a quote of how in physics progress is only made, when old physicist die - I don't wanna be morbid ) but with Java same that's when the culture will change. All those people using typescript (could be…

The drawback is also the JVM. Its a heavy, bulky VM. The alternative being Go that is much lighter.

With all due respect, I'm fairly sure that anyone using "VM" the same way as you do here really think of it as a container or what.

It's a runtime, and go also has a similar, fairly fat runtime. It's just burnt into the binary instead of being shipped separately. (Hell, even Rust has a runtime, it's just very very lean compared to languages featuring a full GC like go and java)

Re: Java 26 is here

#330

Post by gf000 »

troad wrote: post #299
deepsun wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mmm, no, I don't see why OOP has anything to do here (any examples?). I did not use any inheritance. In general I would say OOP craziness faded long ago (in Java too), together with XML. Interfaces -- yes, are very much alive though.

I'm not using OOP to mean presently unpopular facets of OOP, to the exclusion of presently popular ones, I mean all of OOP. It's pretty hard to need factories, let alone factory factories, when one isn't using objects or classes. A friendly joke in response to the claim that sufficiently complex code always ends up sprouting OOP abstract nonsense.

Unless you are using a strictly FP language, you are always basically using objects.

And all the stuff like factories and everything exist in FP as well, it's pretty short sighted to say otherwise. These are patterns that may or may not be useful in a given case. Sometimes a language feature can replace them (e.g. pattern matching ~ visitor pattern, but not even this is a full match see closed vs open hierarchy), but in most cases you just call them something else/don't have that problem because you are not writing that big of a software.

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