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Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

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Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#321

Post by chupchap »

db48x wrote: post #11

Steve Lehto has an analysis of the opinion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VinCGmdj-jQ One interesting point is that the Judge also spent some ink criticizing the law because paying the ticket removes the ticket from your driving record. This means that habitual bad drivers can get away with the same infractions over and over again as long as they pay the fines quickly. This bypasses the State’s points system that w…

In Australia you will get a fine and demerit points for speeding or for running through a red light. The points don't go away even if you pay the fine. If you go through a year without infractions, one point will be taken off. I think that's a fair system. More details here [https://www.nsw.gov.au/driving-boating-and-transport/demerit...] and here [https://www.primelawyers.com.au/traffic-law/speeding-offence...]

Coming to the part about issuing fines to the registered owner, you can nominate a different driver online here, when replying to the fine. The person nominated need to accept this as well before it is taken off the person to whom the vehicle is registered to.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#322

Post by sejje »

ggiigg wrote: post #292
hamdingers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…

Yea, that would be great then I can completely ignore them as I am not poor. It just turns speeding into something you can buy.

Well, it's red-light running. But I don't think even rich people will just breeze through every red and pay the fines; it'll add up quickly.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#323

Post by sejje »

hamdingers wrote: post #253
fusslo wrote: post #198

After reading the 21 page order, I do tend to agree with the judge The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure. Additionally, "A distinctive feature of the statutory scheme is its assignment of guilt to the registered owner rather than the driver of the vehicle". and "If there are multiple registered owners, the citation is issued to the 'first' registered…

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…

Hopefully other states don't follow this pattern; I don't think the government should be installing surveillance arrays, even if it's "for the children" or public safety.

Trading a little liberty for a little safety and all that.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#324

Post by sejje »

jaredklewis wrote: post #317
sowbug wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consistent, low-impact enforcement is better at preventing unwanted behavior than the rare and severe but also capricious enforcement performed by human police. It can also give permission for unwanted behavior. Cf. the Haifa study, where the rate of late pickups increased when daycares added a fine. One explanation is the fine turned a complex moral obligation into an ordinary financial transaction.

The Haifa daycare study can’t be used to extrapolate much. They fined parents (IIRC) ~$3 per late pickup. Rerun the study with a $300 fine and let’s see how it pans out. It’s an interesting finding, but that then people take it to mean that fines don’t work (no matter their size) is insane.

I worked in childcare about 20 years ago, and we charged $1 per minute late.

We had to keep two staff there, and they would split the fine.

Many times we got stiffed.

Edit: for reference, our fee was about $14/day to keep the kid, so it was a pretty stiff penalty.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#325

Post by zoky »

vkou wrote: post #274
causal wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Parking is leaving your possession somewhere and should apply to the registered owner. It is not illegal to own a car that someone else used to run a red light.

If someone used the car without permission, they are guilty of theft. If they used the car with your permission, you should either be responsible for what they do with it, or be able to point to the person who was using it.

Except that requiring you to testify in order to absolve yourself of guilt violates your Fifth Amendment right not to testify in a trial against you. It is up to the government to prove you did something, not up to you to prove you didn’t.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#326

Post by 0x3f »

Symbiote wrote: post #214
0x3f wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't conveniently left out anything. I wrote my previous comments intentionally, and specified which statistic I was talking about. If you misread it, that's on you. I used this statistic because yours is like saying the US is richer than Switzerland, if you don't divide by the number of people. Pretty irrelevant. There is no point comparing a country that drives everywhere with a country that doesn't using a me…

You named the two European countries higher than the USA, and ignored the 12 that are lower.

I presented the US' position in the list with the surrounding European countries, both higher and lower, to show that it sits in the cluster. It can be at the edge of the cluster, that's fine. The other person was claiming a 2-10x difference and, more importantly, blaming it on the 'havoc' that occurs without the presumption of guilt. The countries I listed have that presumption, and yet have comparable rates.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#327

Post by richard_chase »

I was pulled over for having a non-obstructive frame on my license plate. The officer said they interfere with the red light cameras. He then presented me with a screwdriver and gave me the option of getting a ticket or taking it off. I took the screwdriver and he watched me take it off. I lost a freedom due to a shitty ml model.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#328

Post by 0x3f »

antonvs wrote: post #267
0x3f wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't conveniently left out anything. I wrote my previous comments intentionally, and specified which statistic I was talking about. If you misread it, that's on you. I used this statistic because yours is like saying the US is richer than Switzerland, if you don't divide by the number of people. Pretty irrelevant. There is no point comparing a country that drives everywhere with a country that doesn't using a me…

> There is no point comparing a country that drives everywhere with a country that doesn't Unless the argument is that driving everywhere is a stupid and irresponsible way to operate a society.

Perhaps but seems irrelevant to a discussion that's around the question of policy as it relates to people who are already driving.

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#329

Post by XorNot »

sejje wrote: post #323
hamdingers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…

Hopefully other states don't follow this pattern; I don't think the government should be installing surveillance arrays, even if it's "for the children" or public safety. Trading a little liberty for a little safety and all that.

Is only said by those days intending to provide neither?

Is said in place of using actual arguments or evidence?

Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional

#330

Post by Larrikin »

sejje wrote: post #323
hamdingers wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…

Hopefully other states don't follow this pattern; I don't think the government should be installing surveillance arrays, even if it's "for the children" or public safety. Trading a little liberty for a little safety and all that.

The problem is ever since COVID the cops don't do their job and everyone drives terribly.
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