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Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

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Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#321

Post by samusiam »

HerbManic wrote: post #142
rglover wrote: post #41

> When you spend two years making useless Arduino projects, you develop instincts about electronics, materials, and design that you can’t get from a tutorial. When vibe coding goes straight to production, you lose that developmental space. The tool is powerful enough to produce real output before the person using it has developed real judgment. The crux of the problem. The only way to truly know is to get your hands…

Yep. Increases output but reduces understanding.

It doesn't have to reduce understanding. It completely depends on how you use it. See, for example, this study

https://arxiv.org/html/2601.20245v2

Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#322

Post by ytoawwhra92 »

sarchertech wrote: post #278
ytoawwhra92 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. There are corners of the industry where people still write ASM by hand when necessary, but for the vast, vast majority it's neither necessary (because compilers are great) or worthwhile (because it's so time consuming). Most code is written in high-level, interpreted languages with no particular attention paid to its performance characteristics. Despite the frustration of those of us who know better, businesses…

Compilers take a formal language and translate it to another formal language. In most cases there is no ambiguity, it’s deterministic, and most importantly it’s not chaotic. That is changing one word in the source code doesn’t tend to produce a vastly different output, or changes to completely unrelated code. Because the LLM is working from informal language, it is by necessity making thousands of small (and not so s…

The problem you describe is real, but I think it can be addressed by improving tooling without any improvement in available LLM technology.

Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#323

Post by [deleted] »

peteforde wrote: post #318
andsoitis wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's now possible for people to buy affordable CNCs, laser cutters and UV printers. Do a lot of people do it? Maybe the answer is a tentative yes, given news like the recent case about guns and 3D printing.

I would put "you can make anything" -> "I will print guns!" strongly in the "no creative ideas" category. Honestly, it's baffling that anyone would put real effort into printing guns when it seems as though some countries cough make it easy to pick one up at Walmart.

[deleted]

Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#324

Post by paulryanrogers »

peteforde wrote: post #315
fao_ wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with your framing cynicism as an "agenda". For the record, I agree that the maker movement hasn't actually ended, and most of your points are correct; however, the idea of LLMs teaching Electronics worries me about as much as people using LLMs to learn Chemistry. A little while ago I had to dissuade someone from learning Chemistry via an LLM, because the advice that they had been given by the LLM would hav…

I guess we have to agree to disagree, because I am not particularly interested in chemistry and ChatGPT has been extraordinarily helpful in demystifying electronics. Having 24/7 access to a patient person who can unpack the difference between TTL and CMOS logic or when you'd choose a buffer instead of a Schmitt trigger without belittling you for not already knowing what they know is awesome and not going to get anyon…

Electronics can kill too. IIRC capacitors in CRTs are particularly deadly. Though I suppose someone using LLMs only as a first step, much like Wikipedia, is probably at much less risk than someone using it as their only source.

Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#325

Post by fragmede »

LtWorf wrote: post #281
fragmede wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like with vibecoding complains, have you tried the latest models (of 3d printers)? Specifically, Bambu's latest models make the printer a device to just use rather than the project itself. It's the Apple of 3d printing. Previously, you'd spend hours on calibrating and leveling nonsense. Latest models don't have this problem. Open the app on your phone, (doom)scroll until you find something, and just hit print fr…

Having a 3d printer without learning how to use a cad seems kind of pointless.

If the point is to make a plastic switch cover, why is it important that the person CADs it themselves, rather than hitting print of a model they found online? Does it fail some sort of piety test that the end result that comes out the other end is a functional piece of plastic in a specific shape?

Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#326

Post by steve_adams_86 »

peteforde wrote: post #317
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same camp. I don't love that my career seems to be evaporating and perhaps no one will have a use for me soon, but, LLMs have made making even easier and more fun than ever. My sense of what I can take on has been amplified so much, it feels like a super power. Reverse engineering things used to be intimidating to take on, but now it feels like a couple afternoons of exploring with Claude. Understanding th…

Hear, hear! I am quite tired of skeptics and naysayers telling me that I'm only imagining learning, only imagining finishing projects, only imagining having more time for the fun parts.

I mean, I've expanded what I use my programming skills for dramatically in the last year. I've suddenly got several personal macOS apps I'm building and maintaining for myself, for my small business, or for fun. That never happened before (I've generally been full stack on the web). I've built far more useful and complex firmware and finally begun designing and building custom circuits. I rarely had the time for that before.

I'm able to take on way more interesting and challenging projects in my business because the logistics and legwork required for implementing them are greatly simplified by being able to actually implement the specs for the software I've had in my head for years.

This is a stark contrast to pre-2024 or so. I've always been an explorer, a fairly prolific software developer I guess, but now it's so much more than that. And it's leaking into hardware and other physical ventures. I'm typically limited by funds more than anything.

Are some of my projects lower quality than if they were done by someone more qualified? Yeah, totally. Though I think I still do a solid job. I don't care though; these things have opened my eyes and mind so much and made creating so much more inviting and exciting.

It still burns with the 'career careening into the dirt' vibes I get most days, but what the hell, it was good while it lasted. If I was smart enough to make the computer do the thing, maybe I'll be smart enough to do something else that's useful. And I've got some years left before it's truly end of the line, I think.

Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#327

Post by aleph_minus_one »

muvlon wrote: post #316
aleph_minus_one wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. Met those guys in my TechShop days. They also insisted that 3D printers should be made with 3D printers, which resulted in a generation of flimsy, inaccurate machines. I do believe that this vision is basically correct, but the implementation of these eager 3D printing enthusiasts was deeply flawed: There exist lots of designs of really good 3D printers on the internet that are at least partly 3D-printed. So a…

Sure, and that's useful but not revolutionary nor exclusive to 3D printers. You can use a milling to mill a bunch of pieces for a milling machine. You can use a PCB printer to print the PCBs for a PCB printer. A 3D printer is much, much closer to this than it is to a self-replicating machine.

> You can use a milling to mill a bunch of pieces for a milling machine.

Now that CNC mills get more affordable, people are starting to get vocal about their visions of a self-milling CNC mill. :-)

Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#328

Post by peteforde »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #324
peteforde wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we have to agree to disagree, because I am not particularly interested in chemistry and ChatGPT has been extraordinarily helpful in demystifying electronics. Having 24/7 access to a patient person who can unpack the difference between TTL and CMOS logic or when you'd choose a buffer instead of a Schmitt trigger without belittling you for not already knowing what they know is awesome and not going to get anyon…

Electronics can kill too. IIRC capacitors in CRTs are particularly deadly. Though I suppose someone using LLMs only as a first step, much like Wikipedia, is probably at much less risk than someone using it as their only source.

Yeah, okay but... look, I concede that someone who shouldn't be doing anything except watching passive entertainment could absolutely take insane advice from an LLM (or a sociopathic human) and seriously hurt themselves.

But raw dogging capacitors in CRTs is such an overtly straw man argument in this conversation. People who are cleaning bathrooms for the first time can hopefully be trusted not to drink the bleach, right?

If someone licks a running table saw because an LLM said it would be fine, we're talking about entirely different problems.

Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#329

Post by paulryanrogers »

ytoawwhra92 wrote: post #322
sarchertech wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compilers take a formal language and translate it to another formal language. In most cases there is no ambiguity, it’s deterministic, and most importantly it’s not chaotic. That is changing one word in the source code doesn’t tend to produce a vastly different output, or changes to completely unrelated code. Because the LLM is working from informal language, it is by necessity making thousands of small (and not so s…

The problem you describe is real, but I think it can be addressed by improving tooling without any improvement in available LLM technology.

How? Are you thinking of adversarial AI reviewers, runtime tests (also by AI), or something else?

Guess I just don't see how you can take the human out of the loop and replace them with non-deterministic AIs and informal prompts / specs.

Re: Will vibe coding end like the maker movement?

#330

Post by peteforde »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #326
peteforde wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hear, hear! I am quite tired of skeptics and naysayers telling me that I'm only imagining learning, only imagining finishing projects, only imagining having more time for the fun parts.

I mean, I've expanded what I use my programming skills for dramatically in the last year. I've suddenly got several personal macOS apps I'm building and maintaining for myself, for my small business, or for fun. That never happened before (I've generally been full stack on the web). I've built far more useful and complex firmware and finally begun designing and building custom circuits. I rarely had the time for that…

I sympathize your your feelings of existential dread without further qualifiers. Big hug!

I personally think that as amazing as LLMs for coding are, LLMs for coding and electronics is like activating the powered robotic exoskeleton for your mind.

As for whether your projects are lower quality (the kids would say "mid"; catch up!) or not... they are higher quality than the ones you made last year, and I heard that the actual best way to learn is by doing. Ideally also asking a ton of questions at each step.

Some nights I lay in bed just relentlessly interrogating ChatGPT in audio mode about transformers and op-amps.

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