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Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

bbc.com

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Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#321

Post by reliabilityguy »

roysting wrote: post #296
thomassmith65 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two nations had good relations until 1979, which is a problem for this person's world view.

I have no dog in a fight, in which you seem to really care about Iran, which is totally irrelevant, meaningless, and inconsequential to the USA or its national interests or national security; but the war machine relies on fools to fun smoothly. You do realize though that you are morally and ethically and spiritually culpable and responsible for the murder of the people that will die due to the support you provide to…

Man, you can’t use the word “colonial” in a serious discourse. This is not 2010, and we are not on campus.

If we stick to this colonial term we will never find an end. Arabs colonized the whole Middle East and subjugated all natives: Jews, Kurds, ezidis, Assyrians, etc. Moreover, Iran itself was colonized and Arabized by force. So, I would say any anti-Muslim anti-Arab movement in Iran is anticolonial by nature.

Where does it lead us? Nowhere. This is why this whole “colonial” vs. native etc is pointless — there was always some group of people living on a piece of land before some other group came.

Edit:

Also, I find it pretty hilarious that Shah was a colonial regime but Islamic Republic is not: France literally harbored Khomeini and the moment Shah fell they flew him back to lead the revolution. But since IRs rhetoric is anti west and anti Israel, the modern left completely forgives all the atrocities committed by IR: abuse of women, violent suppression of dissent, execution of rappers for a song, etc.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#322

Post by basisword »

Rover222 wrote: post #251
basisword wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your logic is that wearing an item of clothing is 'genocidal'. Israel killing 20,000 children...is self-defence?

Oh please. Hamas's primary mission is the elimination of Israel. Wearing that bandana obviously shows support for Hamas.

Good job dodging the 20k dead children.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#323

Post by magic_hamster »

zyxzevn wrote: post #203

[flagged]

Nice try, Khamenei. Good to know you managed to power on your router today and visit HN.

Seriously though, Iran has repeatedly declared that the U.S. and Israel should cease to exist. It funds militant groups across the Middle East. It claims its nuclear program is for “peaceful purposes,” yet has produced highly enriched uranium at levels far beyond what is needed for civilian energy - levels that could only be used for nuclear weapons.

Iran’s hostility toward the U.S. and Israel is so overt that American and Israeli flags are sometimes placed on the floors of certain facilities so officials can walk over them as a symbolic gesture of contempt.

Iran killed their own people in numbers anywhere between 3000 to 30000, shooting live ammunition onto civilian protests.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#324

Post by mindslight »

Erem wrote: post #134
mothballed wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the civil rights leaders themselves were mostly genuine. I think they were used as useful idiots on a couple instances to support the two most destructive policies of the US. (1) Secession. This was used for evil in the form of slavery. But it is the most powerful check of federal power by the states we had. The fact it could be used for evil did not mean it is better to get rid of it. (2) Expansion of the…

With that framing, aren’t those two outcomes detrimental side effects of achieving the objective, rather than the objective itself per your original comment?

The commenter you're responding to has an enlightening perspective on many things, but can't resist the temptation of framing their arguments in a needlessly inflammatory manner that bites off just a little more than is actually defensible. I chalk it up to age.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#325

Post by Rapzid »

bigyabai wrote: post #295
hunterpayne wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's projection. Because it is nearly impossible in practice split support as you claim you are. HAMAS is the government in Gaza. They intercept any and all aid that isn't administered directly to Palestinians. Also the questionable version of the history of the region that you have to believe (or be completely ignorant of the history) to support the Palestinians is entirely a HAMAS narrative. If you actually knew…

> PS Most of the videos that swayed you were AI generated. This is an absolutely insane and downright insulting claim to make about anyone. You should feel ashamed of saying something as utterly indefensible as this.

Still taking people for a ride. User said "you" but I never offered a position on the matter.

Bot, agitator, troll, or etc Other account the same.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#326

Post by don_esteban »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #294
dyauspitr wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m glad it didn’t work in 1989 because China would not have become the technical behemoth it is now if those protests had succeeded. At the same time I don’t want China to succeed and export its brand of capitofascism purely because I don’t think most other countries can find their benevolent dictator. The cognitive dissonance is wild right now.

> because China would not have become the technical behemoth it is now if those protests had succeeded Taiwan's GDP/capita is 2.6x China's [1]. It grew faster, for longer, in large part through high technology. Counterfactuals are always hard in history. But we literally have the nationalist government's democratic, capitalist successor kicking in way above its weight class economically and technologically. It's fair…

First, note that Taiwan was initially not democracy, the liberalization started by lifting of martial law in 1987, first parliamentary elections in 1992, first presidential elections in 1996 (this is widely considered the point at which Taiwan became a consolidated democracy)

From your link: 1987: Taiwan 5325, China 300 1996: Taiwan 13588, China 710 --- 2024 Taiwan 34060, China 13314

Whatever starting point you choose, China has risen faster than Taiwan.

In fact, there is non-zero chance that if China had a regime change and heeded west's economic 'advice', it would have gone through equivalent of what Russia went in the 90's.

They are doing fine, thank you, doing it their commie way, despite Zeihan and others preaching China's immminent collapse for decades.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#327

Post by reliabilityguy »

gambutin wrote: post #245
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it fair to call it colonialism instead of occupation? EDIT: Nvm.

I was referring to the Arab conquest of Iran after 633.

It’s colonialism.

Edit: a modern example of it is the introduction of arabic language in Iranian schools after the revolution because arabic is the language of the Quran. A similar thing is done by China w.r.t. uighurs, which are not allowed to teach their language, and culture in schools, it has to be only Mandarin. Or, in Turkey, where by constitution it is prohibited to use any non-Turkish language as a language of instruction in schools.

So yeah.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#328

Post by buran77 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #235
martin-t wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article is on my to-read list and I am a great fan of Mr. Devereaux's work. But I also feel like promoting non-violence outside the context of western democracies is misleading and potentially dangerous. Maybe he addresses it somewhere in the article but I have yet to read it so forgive me if he does. But how does he explain the failure of peaceful revolutions in Belarus or China? My understanding of social dyna…

> feel like promoting non-violence outside the context of western democracies is misleading and potentially dangerous The article discusses "efforts, in a sense, directed against the state itself, both violent approaches (what we might call ‘terroristic insurgency’) and non-violent approaches (protest)" ( Id. ). > Maybe he addresses it somewhere in the article but I have yet to read it "The ‘center of gravity’ – the…

His is a very idealistic take which weirdly omits that every major example of non-violent protest working to topple a regime involved some foreign super power spending trillions of dollars to wage very much violent wars for the purpose. The insight that he's missing in so many words is that you need to crack the door open just enough for a foreign (super)power to want to come barging in for some reason. Non-violent protests might work as good optics for this, but good optics don't launch rockets on the enemy.

> there are very obviously regimes in the world that have rendered themselves more-or-less immune to non-violent protest.

This sounds like a cop-out to the original blanket statement, or at least this is how I interpret it from your earlier quote. Regimes copy methodologies from others wherever possible and learn from failure to coup-proof themselves faster than the population can keep up. This is why most authoritarian regimes have endured for so long despite many being otherwise failed states, and almost always need some sort of external covert or military intervention to tip the scales.

It's like saying that you can hit the target every time by just meditating. And having a professional take the shot for you.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#329

Post by roysting »

thomassmith65 wrote: post #309
roysting wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no dog in a fight, in which you seem to really care about Iran, which is totally irrelevant, meaningless, and inconsequential to the USA or its national interests or national security; but the war machine relies on fools to fun smoothly. You do realize though that you are morally and ethically and spiritually culpable and responsible for the murder of the people that will die due to the support you provide to…

but the war machine relies on fools to fun smoothly There is nothing new under the sun. Interwar pacifists made these arguments 100 years ago. They have some merit, but they weren't then and aren't now the full picture. You do realize though that you are morally and ethically and spiritually culpable and responsible for the murder Inaction also results in death. colonial puppet Shah regime There is no point arguing f…

I'm not at all a pacifist. If you knew something about me, you would realize just how wrong that is. I am merely opposed to being used, manipulated, played, conned, scammed, f-ed, and more colorful language I will retain for myself.

And sure, inaction may or may not result in death, but inaction is not morally obligated, especially when I am not even remotely involved or it does not remotely concern me. If I am understanding your perspectively correctly, the irony is simply that you do not understand that clandestine action is actually orchestrating and instigating the supposed death you imply could be prevented through additional action you are being manipulated into taking/supporting.

Yes, there is nothing new under the sun, including the very same playbook that is being used now that was used repeatedly over the lifetime of every very young children here, let alone anyone that has reached legal maturity.

What else would you call that the Shah was thick with the CIA. et al. and his son basically lives across the river from the CIA in Potomac, MD? I am also liberal in many ways, but these are just true things. Have you ever heard of The Grayzone with Max Blumenthal and Aaron Matè. They provide a good introduction to current and recent events focused on this topic.

Re: Iran students stage first large anti-government protests since deadly crackdown

#330

Post by reliabilityguy »

pphysch wrote: post #278
fortzi wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran is not an adversary of Israel, as much as the IRGC is.

Are Iranians supposed to believe that after Israel destroyed every hospital and university in Gaza? Insulting. The IRGC is under every brick and pebble.

What does Gaza has to do with what Iranians believe?

In war, when civilian infrastructure is used for military purposes, it will get destroyed. Look at all the cities in Ukraine where combat did happen, like Bahmut, or Mariupol. They got absolutely decimated.

Any country on earth engaging in ground combat would do exactly the same tactics as Israel did, and we have plenty of evidence of that from the past 20 years.

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