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Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

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Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Know what I’m sayin’. I do, and if I were you I would stop to think about your priors. You have stacked an awful lot of ideas on top of each other to build a world view that has lies, misinformation, and unsound science at the base of it. Worse, a lot of it is selfish, but in a way that only works if the entire global economy is a zero sum game. Enlightened self-interest can be right, and even noble, but only if yo…

> 1) Solar is (far) cheaper than fossil fuel's now

No, that's simply not true.

It's cheaper for MOST of the year, but overall, it's more expensive. Because you can't just tell people, "Well, now, during this cold January, please don't waste electricity because our panels are producing almost nothing." You either need batteries that store energy for weeks of consumption, or backup with fossil fuels, and in any case, that makes solar panels more expensive than fossil fuels.

> Trump is somehow making it worse while also letting children starve thanks to cutting USAID.

It's very strange. In all cases of interaction with the USAID that I know about directly from those interacting with it, and not from media sources, in EVERY case it was liberal propaganda or direct anti-Trump propaganda. And none of the starving children that I know about directly from those who interacted with them, and not from the media, have ever received any food aid from.

I know, of course, that this is an anecdotal case, but I prefer to trust people with whom I am at least superficially acquainted, rather than media companies that are apparently run by pedophiles.

> 5) Why in the hell would anyone WANT the manufacturing jobs? The only reasons humans have them is that humans (in some places) are cheaper than robots.

Because the era of US hegemony is ending, and at some point you simply won't be able to live off the rest of the world. At that point, you'll either have production or you'll simply starve to death. Because food (and robots) don't fall from the sky. And if you don't produce it (and don't take it from the rest of the world through your hegemony), you'll starve and die.

> Billionaire money just idles non-productively most of the time

American workers spend as much money EACH YEAR as billionaires accumulated over generations (mostly in the form of productive capacity, not idling in the piles)

> and I have to say that I'm better off now than 10 years ago. Maybe I just made better choices?

The best choice is to rob the rest of the world and live off them? Well, congratulations on making the better choice that allows you, unlike the REST OF THE WORLD, not work for less than $2 an hour (as 90% of the Earth's population does, thanks to American hegemony).

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#322
post #72

Cheapest second generation Mirai I could find is €9950 including VAT. It has scuffs all-round but no major or structural damage. Only 103k km. This was a €71,000 car four years ago. That is 86% of the value gone. And you were driving around on very expensive hydrogen (compared to diesel and BEV).

> And you were driving around on very expensive hydrogen That original owner was probably doing all those miles on the free hydrogen given by Toyota.

That program was not available in my region

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WTF , you are commenting about FCEV - these things dont have engines! The strategy clearly stated by Akio Toyoda is multiple power train technology. You can listen to his interviews on the subject, some are in Japanese, but as you have stated a clear and unambiguous interpretation of Toyota's policy I will assume you have that fluency. (Automotive OEMs are assemblers, the parts come from the supply chain starting wit…

Toyota has had this hydrogen bug since the early 90's. What's that old meme? Stop trying to make ____ happen, it's not going to happen.

The point I was trying to make was I'm not sure it was ever about making something happen completely, but being prepared on all fronts for whatever the outcome is.

Kaizen and JIT are not good for revolutionary change. So I expect by bootstrapping different options early enough they can act on real market pressure once the condition to accurately assess the evidence is available.

For hydrogen getting to that point was a multi decade lead time.

I suspect most western commentary on this topic comes from people not understanding both how numerical/empirical based Toyota are, how self aware of their potential weaknesses they are, plus the ability of a Japanese business to hold to a multi decade hedging initiative.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Know what I’m sayin’. I do, and if I were you I would stop to think about your priors. You have stacked an awful lot of ideas on top of each other to build a world view that has lies, misinformation, and unsound science at the base of it. Worse, a lot of it is selfish, but in a way that only works if the entire global economy is a zero sum game. Enlightened self-interest can be right, and even noble, but only if yo…

> Republican presidents have added about $1.4 trillion per four-year term, compared to $1.2 trillion added by Democrats since 1913.

That doesn’t sound right, so I spend twenty three seconds looking it up:

New Report Reveals Democrats Generated 90% of Federal Debt Held by the Public since WWII - https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/republicans/2011...

As of April 5, 2024, the national debt has grown by about $6.17 trillion, or 21.7%, since Joe Biden was inaugurated in 2021, according to the U.S. Treasury Department. - https://www.consumeraffairs.com/finance/us-debt-by-president...

Joe Biden - $6.66 trillion - https://www.usatoday.com/money/blueprint/banking/national-de...

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#325
post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to Google what is green hydrogen. It is hydrogen produced by electrolysis. If you've already got the electricity for electrolysis, would it not be more efficient and mechanically simpler to store it in a battery and power an electric motor?

Green hydrogen is a way to ship solar power elsewhere that doesn't have it, similar to a battery, but with the advantage of being able to be piped/pumped/liquified etc.

Liquid hydrogen loses 1% of its volume per day due to boil-off. Hydrogen is incredibly difficult to move without huge energy losses.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#326

Kinda glad this is the case. When people go out of their way to avoid common sense they should be punished. Hydrogen is such a terrible idea it was never getting off the ground. There seems to be some kind of psychosis around it being the next oil and therefore greedy people want to get in early on. But this blinds them to the basic chemistry and physics.

There is a great way to store, transport, and use hydrogen: Bind it to various length carbon chains. When burned as an energy source the two main byproducts are carbon dioxide which is an essential plant growth nutrient, and water which is also essential to plant growth. Environmentalists will love it! And they can prise my turbo diesel engines from my cold dead hands.

We live (or at least used live) in a very nice climate equilibrium with the CO2 level we had. Pushing us into another climate equilibrium looks very dangerous for human civilization. However I concede that it might be advantageous for certain plants, but I am not a plant so I am mostly concerned about human civilization.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Toyota Mirai is a passenger vehicle, not an airplane nor a transatlantic container ship.

Sure, but if the economics of hydrogen motors worked out for planes and shipping, the argument is that it would also economically work out for cars.

Is suspect large trucks may eventually move to hydrogen, but smaller passenger vehicles will stay on batteries. The nature of hydrogen containment favors larger capacity, on account of better volume to surface area ratios.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if the economics of hydrogen motors worked out for planes and shipping, the argument is that it would also economically work out for cars.

Is suspect large trucks may eventually move to hydrogen, but smaller passenger vehicles will stay on batteries. The nature of hydrogen containment favors larger capacity, on account of better volume to surface area ratios.

Hydrogen was marketed as a stopgap until batteries are good enough. Well, batteries are good enough for trucks now:

https://www.electrive.com/2026/01/23/year-end-surge-electric...

Once you go battery electric, you never go back. It's the most efficient way to move vehicles.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#329
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Know what I’m sayin’. I do, and if I were you I would stop to think about your priors. You have stacked an awful lot of ideas on top of each other to build a world view that has lies, misinformation, and unsound science at the base of it. Worse, a lot of it is selfish, but in a way that only works if the entire global economy is a zero sum game. Enlightened self-interest can be right, and even noble, but only if yo…

> 1) Solar is (far) cheaper than fossil fuel's now No, that's simply not true. It's cheaper for MOST of the year, but overall, it's more expensive. Because you can't just tell people, "Well, now, during this cold January, please don't waste electricity because our panels are producing almost nothing." You either need batteries that store energy for weeks of consumption, or backup with fossil fuels, and in any case, t…

> You either need batteries that store energy for weeks of consumption, or backup with fossil fuels, and in any case, that makes solar panels more expensive than fossil fuels.

I love the wild mental gymnastics and cherry picking data these people put themselves through in order to delude themselves in to believing solar is cheaper than gas.

How can it be, when you need to build both. Or freeze in the dark.

As you said, in practice you either need batteries that don’t exist and would be prohibitively expensive because they would sit idle most the year where only hours to days of backup are required, but in winter you need weeks of storage and the output from the panels are significantly reduced so you need to massively overbuild…

OR you need to build gas peaker plants, which also sit idle most the year, but need to be run frequently and maintained to ensure they’re ready to run when needed.

The real world data is available for anyone who wants to run the numbers.

I was in Adelaide and participated in the discussions where Dr Barry Brook[1] and others ran the numbers over ten years ago. Exhaustively ran the numbers, both with real world data from recently built solar and wind, and optimistic projections of future improvements

The fundamentals haven’t changed. Even if the panels themselves were free, the amount or steel and concrete required to replace total global energy requirements with solar and wind is… it’s incomprehensible.

If I recall correctly, it worked out to requiring something absurd like more copper, steel, and concrete, than humans have produced to date (2013 figures) since the start of the Industrial Revolution, every year for the next fifty years just to replace existing energy production and distribution infrastructure, and in so doing we would double or triple atmospheric carbon dioxide levels. We’d then have to work out how to pull those emissions back out of the atmosphere, which wound require further resource use to produce the infrastructure to generate the energy required to extract and sequester the carbon dioxide.

Compare to what we’re doing now which has barely scratched the surface in replacing global energy requirements, with no reduction in carbon dioxide levels.

It all makes a pretty strong case for existing nuclear technology (Gen IV / Gen IV+) to give us time (hundreds of years with existing know uranium reserves) to perfect fast breeder technology so we can use Thorium as nuclear fuel for thousands of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Brook_(scientist)

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#330
post #208
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that + it's an EV that Toyota don't have to source the battery cells. FCEVs are full EVs just like Tesla, that uses a different kind of battery than Li-ion.

The latest model comes with a li-ion battery pack. Previous model had Nimh cells I think.

The point is, it is a full EV. The "hydrogen fuel cell" thing is a type of a battery. A lot of people somehow misses this, and thinks it of an EV-ICE hybrid. It's not.

The FC is a magic non-moving fin stack that generates electricity proportional to the amount of H2 and O2 fed through it. It's a type of a primary(non-reusable) battery. Nominal cell voltage is 3.7V and pack voltage is 370V for Mirai.

Not that it makes the car great, but it is literally an EV.

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