Earlier quoted context omitted.
To me the most painful switch was Gnome 2 to Gnome 3. I still miss Gnome 2. I left Gnome 3 for other WMs (eventually settled on cinnamon), but every once in a while I decided to give Gnome 3 a try, just to be disappointed again. I felt like those people in abusive romantic relationships that keep coming back and divorcing over and over again. "Oh, Gnome has really changed now, he won't beat me again this time!".
Kde 3 to 4 for me. I still miss you amarok 1.4.10.
Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
321–330 of 339 posts
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#322Earlier quoted context omitted.
I still have a choice to not use systemd. The systemd people didn't inhabit and then try to kill sysvinit or runit or any of the other competing technologies.
The X people are the Wayland people, it's not an external occupying force.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#323Am I the only one who's not buying into the Wayland hype? I just want X11 support not to fall into disrepair, as I see nothing wrong with it.
Some cognitive dissonance going on here. The vast majority of current Linux Desktop users are on Wayland, and X11 is phased out across the board. Calling it hype is absurd.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#324Earlier quoted context omitted.
> you put your display code, input-handling code, compositor code, session-handling code, and window-management code all in the same process That's an implementation detail. You can absolutely separate one out from the other and do IPC - it just doesn't make much sense to do so for most of these. The only one where I see it making sense is the window manager, which can simply be an extension/plugin either in a script…
It's not an implementation detail that X11 specifies interfaces between those separate components and Wayland does not - X11 is designed for for the window manager being separate from the display server, Wayland is designed for them being the same.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#325Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unfortunately I don't think Gentoo will keep X11 support in e.g. KDE once its dropped upstream (which is already announced), they don't have the manpower for that. And KDE itself is also not the bastion of user choice it once was, even if they haven't yet gone quite as hostile as Gnome.
> Unfortunately I don't think Gentoo will keep X11 support in e.g. KDE once its dropped upstream... IIRC, the only part that's dropping X11 support is Plasma. From [0]: There are currently no plans to drop X11 support in KDE applications outside of Plasma. This change only concerns Plasma’s X11 login session, which is what’s going away. I don't really care about Plasma; a taskbar to house a system tray and clock is n…
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#326Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not an implementation detail that X11 specifies interfaces between those separate components and Wayland does not - X11 is designed for for the window manager being separate from the display server, Wayland is designed for them being the same.
Wayland simply leaves it up to the implementor - ergo, an implementation detail.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#327Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it doesn't have Android-like separation — a feature no one really wants. It's certainly a feature I want. Pretty sure I'm not alone in wanting isolation between applications--even GUI ones. There's no reason that various applications from various vendors shouldn't be isolated into their own sandboxes (at least in the common case).
There is a big reason: It impedes usability, extensibility and composability. If you sandbox GUI applications then the sandbox needs to add support for any interaction between them or they will just not be possible - and to fully support many advanced interactions like automation you will essentially have to punch huge holes in the sandbox anyway. Meanwhile the advantages of sandboxing are pretty much moot in an open…
Starting with a sandbox and poking holes/whitelisting as-needed is a good way to go. Whitelisting access on a per-application basis is a pragmatic way to do this, and Flatpak with Wayland gives a way to actually implement this. It's imperfect, but it's a good start.
Preventing keylogging is a good, concrete example here. There's no reason some random application should be able to see me type out the master password in my password manager.
Likewise, there is no reason that some other application should be able to read ~/.bash_history or ~/.ssh/. The browser should limit itself to ~/Downloads. Etc.
> Meanwhile the advantages of sandboxing are pretty much moot in an open source distro where individual applications are open and not developed by user hostile actors.
Defense in depth. Belt and suspenders. I do trust the software I run to some degree, and take great care in choosing the software. But it's not perfect. Likewise, I take care to use sandboxing features whenever I can, acknowledging that they sometimes must have holes poked in them. But the Swiss cheese model is generally a good lens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model
If we weren't concerned with belt and suspenders and could rely on applications being developed by non-hostile actors, then we could all run as root all the time! But we don't do that--we try to operate according to least-privilege and isolate separate tasks as much as is practical. Accordingly, technologies which allow improved isolation with zero or minimal impact to functionality are strictly a good thing, and should be embraced as such.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#328Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Unfortunately I don't think Gentoo will keep X11 support in e.g. KDE once its dropped upstream... IIRC, the only part that's dropping X11 support is Plasma. From [0]: There are currently no plans to drop X11 support in KDE applications outside of Plasma. This change only concerns Plasma’s X11 login session, which is what’s going away. I don't really care about Plasma; a taskbar to house a system tray and clock is n…
That's fair, but I would also read it as a sign of things to come for the rest. If you can't run full KDE on X11 there will not be many KDE developers caring about X11 support. KWin for example has already gained many bugs on X11 that I expect to never be fixed. And now KWin for X11 is split into a separate project which will hopefully mean fewer further regressions but probably also not much further development whic…
Given this statement from the announcement that I linked to previously
The Plasma X11 session will be supported by KDE into early 2027.
We cannot provide a specific date, as we’re exploring the possibility of shipping some extra bug-fix releases for Plasma 6.7. The exact timing of the last one will only be known when we get closer to its actual release, which we expect will be sometime in early 2027.
I expect that I will get at least a year's notice before they stop actively working on the rest of the parts of KDE that interact with X11... whenever that ends up being. A year is more than enough time to find replacements for things that might eventually stop working one day.Were I sixteen, I'd be very excited to preemptively move to something else. Now? The folks who work on it say that they'll keep it working for the forseeable future, and their behavior suggests that I'll get ample notice before they stop working on it.
The software in question works now (AFAICT) and will continue to work for quite a while. I am likely to get a significant amount of warning before they stop working on the software. I see no reason to switch. I have much better things to do with my time.
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#329Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Most systems have a way to mostly override the compositor for fullscreen windows and for games No, they don't. I don't think Wayland ever supported exclusive fullscreen, MacOS doesn't, and Windows killed it a while back as well (in a Windows 10 update like 5-ish years ago?) Jitter is a non-issue for things you want vsync'd (like every UI), and for games the modern solution is gsync/freesync which is significantly b…
> I don't think Wayland ever supported Isn't that true for even the most basic features you expect from a windowing system? X11 may have come with everything and the kitchen sink, Wayland drops all that fun on the implementations. GNOME does unredirect on Wayland since 2019: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/g2g99z/wayland_surfa... > Windows killed it They replaced it with "Fullscreen Optimisations", which is m…
Re: Xfwl4 – The Roadmap for a Xfce Wayland Compositor
#330Earlier quoted context omitted.
LibreOffice works for me on wayland lol. I don't know why you would wanna do fractional scaling on a per app basis whenever you got one screen. But, for your libreoffice woes, try using a different backend? Libreoffice includes support for gtk3, gtk4, Qt6, and other backends: https://github.com/LibreOffice/core/blob/master/vcl/README.m... Maybe you need to try wayland with an alternative backend?
> Maybe you need to try wayland with an alternative backend? And this is the inherent problem with Wayland. Now we have to deal with a combinatorial explosion of things to try to get something that "just works."