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No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

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Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#321

Post by acdha »

Izkata wrote: post #312
acdha wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If their output is as a tech lead then even a 2x can provide an overall 10x increase through second order impact via their team. This is something the 10x mythology tends to leave out: there are a vanishingly few people who are significantly above the 90th percentile in terms of individual productivity but if the discussion shifted to team dynamics, that’s where you can actually see really big gains by helping a la…

10x came from actual measurements a few decades ago, getting people to implement the same project and seeing what the result was. The two parts missing from the modern usage of the term: the measurement was within a given team (not overall), and it was a comparison of best and worst, not best and average.

10x came from the 80s, so already fairly different in key ways (internet documentation, CI, platform and tool maturity, etc.), and the methodology is challenging because you don’t have easy comparisons between complex real projects without tons of confounds and trying to measure artificial challenges runs into different but also significant challenges selecting the candidates and ensuring that the work is representative.

There are definitely people who are more or less productive but I think we’re very prone to focus on the individual while ignoring the environment they’re working in, as well as the question about broadly applicable that result is.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#322

Post by nebula8804 »

bob001 wrote: post #319
nebula8804 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed what I said in my first paragraph. Occupy was after the capital class but they did not express it well. Looking back, a common criticism was that the movement was leaderless and thus unorganized. It was the early days of a new generation (Millennials) getting a first taste of the coming disaster their lives were going to be. The last time there was really a movement like that was the 1999 WTO protests...mo…

> Occupy was after the capital class White washing history doesn't change the reality of what the people actually making up the movement wanted. Not what the self-elected spokespeople who had no actual power since there were no leaders said to make it all sound less threatening. > From 2011 starting as a completely unorganized group to running the finance capital of America in just 15 years. Always interesting how bo…

I don't even know what argument you are even trying to make anymore. Occupy had demands, they were not clear. I explained one reason why.

>Always interesting how both the left and right forget democracy and checks and balanced and just assume the executive branch is a dictator when it's their wannabe dictator in power. :)

Where did I assume that? Mamdani was elected with an amazing margin bringing out people who had given up on voting and many who had never felt to vote before. Essentially he began his term with a strong mandate. This is while everyone clearly knew he was a Democratic Socialist. He didn't become a dictator, the actual overton window of what is considered mainstream has shifted in just 15 years. Thats whats extraordinary.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#323

Post by neilv »

stuartjohnson12 wrote: post #219
neilv wrote: post #192

It sounded good, up until the examples for: > I'll dedicate a post to specific ways you can identify motivation during hiring, but in short, look for All will be gamed by interviewees, by the afternoon this hits the HN front page. (And, for example, tech interview prep has already been telling people to fake passion and curiosity, for many years now.) Here's what you do: 1. Consider that the early startup also belong…

I think what people miss about indexing on social signals is that convincing social performance is hard. My suspicion when people say things like "ah but if you index on a social signal then everyone will just perform the social signal" are themselves feeling as though they do not naturally signal that thing, and ironically are frustrated by the effort that it takes to appear as though they do.

Why is that your suspicion?

The context on this one is that we've gone from an environment in which kids were mocked for having curiosity and passion about nerdy things like systems, and it didn't pay that well as an adult, and those people would go home at the end of the day and also write open source code...

To one in which it's now a high-paying career, and a bunch of interview prep manuals coach on faking that, doing open source to promote your career, etc.

So if OG nerds look around at the environment and see the dynamics, of people who just want well-paying jobs (nothing wrong with that) seeming to do a performative dance with interviewers who also just want well-paying jobs (nothing wrong with that), and everyone is being told to project passion and curiosity (when they really just want well-paying jobs) and to look for it in others...

You think the problem is that OG nerds, for example, feel that they do not naturally signal that?

They may signal that just fine, but merely be questioning all the performative theater by people who aren't here for that, but some management fashion told them they should pretend to be.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#324

Post by al_borland »

bob001 wrote: post #226
theshrike79 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Finland we have salary bands for some jobs, but it's usually just the minimum. Some have a maximum, but there are always "personal bonuses" the employer can give on top of that. But these are usually "old" professions like teachers, nurses, factory workers. For IT jobs I haven't seen an official salary band anywhere and there basically is no union mandated maximum and the minimum is mostly a suggestion. We also ge…

> The maximum cap sounds just stupid. Conceptually unions are a democracy and people are selfish. Why should I let some other worker make 10x what I do when I can instead have them make 1x and spread out the other 9x around including to me?

You realize this sounds like you being selfish? You’re taking merit out of the equation, looking to take from others, so that you get more.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#325

Post by player1234 »

tptacek wrote: post #313
titanomachy wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think there's no useful strategies to identify highly motivated prospective employees, or just that these aren't good ones?

I'm not optimistic about scalable strategies to identify "motivated" employees, but I'm not certain. I am pretty certain these strategies are bad. They're what everybody did in the mid-2000s.

[dead]

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#326

Post by Izkata »

nebula8804 wrote: post #139
bob001 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me the only question is if there's a hypothetical revolution who will end up swinging in the wind by their neck and I have no doubt many engineers working for big tech would have been in that group. There's always nice rhetoric and focused rhetoric to not make too many enemies but the people on the ground differentiate a lot less and have in every revolution.

By the time there is a revolution, i'd imagine that most engineers will have fallen to the working classes where they are technically a part of. Again, they are not part of the capital class. They were lucky to come across a special moment in time where there was a paradigm shift bringing with it enormous wealth and the capital class did not part with some of their wealth out of charity but out of greed because they…

> By the time there is a revolution, i'd imagine that most engineers will have fallen to the working classes where they are technically a part of.

"Working class" isn't an adjective+noun that refers to anyone who works, it's a compound noun that specifically refers to physical labor. Knowledge workers of any sort are not part of it, despite both using the word "work".

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#327

Post by joe_mamba »

nebula8804 wrote: post #318
joe_mamba wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that have already passed this in his first week. It's always easy to pass laws to give people free stuff and it works well initially ... until you run out of money of course. That's how Venezuelan leadership also got popular. Who doesn't want more free stuff? It's how elections are won is most of Eastern/Southern Europe too. Until the bill is due and the next generation has to pay.

I do agree that the bill has to be paid. I don't what we are going to do with the trillions of dollars of debt as a result of tax cuts for the rich, handouts to countries like Israel and so much more that does not directly help regular people. The US has been a piggybank for all the world to just loot and take advantage of. Given that this is the environment we are in, I am all for providing these breadcrumbs that Ma…

Except the new perks of New Yorkers voted for, will not come from the pockets of the super wealthy elite, but from debt and taxes paid by working class new yorkers themselves. Mandani won't tax the super wealthy more to pay for it.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#328

Post by nebula8804 »

joe_mamba wrote: post #327
nebula8804 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree that the bill has to be paid. I don't what we are going to do with the trillions of dollars of debt as a result of tax cuts for the rich, handouts to countries like Israel and so much more that does not directly help regular people. The US has been a piggybank for all the world to just loot and take advantage of. Given that this is the environment we are in, I am all for providing these breadcrumbs that Ma…

Except the new perks of New Yorkers voted for, will not come from the pockets of the super wealthy elite, but from debt and taxes paid by working class new yorkers themselves. Mandani won't tax the super wealthy more to pay for it.

Mamdani plans to tax the wealthiest New Yorkers less than they spent on propaganda to try and defeat him but him not taxing the super wealthy at all is not true.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#329

Post by erikerikson »

epolanski wrote: post #213

The whole thing about motivation is non sense. 1. Motivation is a feeling, it's an emotion, it comes and goes, it's a bonus. It's discipline and professionalism that make the huge difference. Many people have the motivation and dream to "create their own programming language", "launch their startup", "make it to the NBA", "lose 40 pounds and get fitter" but this motivation, a feeling, will consistently fight the emot…

I disagree. Motivation is not just an emotion but an inherent desire. For a motivated engineer the balance between the work with pleasures and dreams is already won and pre-balanced for sustainable achievement.

I find the work itself rewarding and I find world improvement results reinforcing of my enjoyment. I want to code and I'm happy to direct that energy largely according to my employer's needs and our shared benefit. I can be given high level directives and refinement feedback over time. My observed results are faster, more effective progress as reported by internal and external stakeholders. I haven't minded becoming wealthier but it was never my primary motive.

As you note, there are other approaches.

Re: No management needed: anti-patterns in early-stage engineering teams

#330

Post by joe_mamba »

nebula8804 wrote: post #328
joe_mamba wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the new perks of New Yorkers voted for, will not come from the pockets of the super wealthy elite, but from debt and taxes paid by working class new yorkers themselves. Mandani won't tax the super wealthy more to pay for it.

Mamdani plans to tax the wealthiest New Yorkers less than they spent on propaganda to try and defeat him but him not taxing the super wealthy at all is not true.

>Mamdani plans to tax the wealthiest New Yorkers

I'm in the "I'll believe it when I see it" camp since if all political promises were cookies, i'd be fat.

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