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Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

nytimes.com

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Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#321
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and still think that giving it to kids as introduction to reading is absurd. But that is not what is happening. Introduction to reading happens pre-school to class two, historic books come from say class 6 onwards.

> But that is not what is happening. Introduction to reading happens pre-school to class two, historic books come from say class 6 onwards. That is exactly what is happening. The pre-schooler do not really read books, that is an absurd claim. They puzzle out words and sentences. It takes so much effort, they loose attention one paragraph in and dont really recall what happened on the last page. Giving historic books…

> The pre-schooler do not really read books, that is an absurd claim.

And a claim I haven't made.

> They puzzle out words and sentences.

Exactly, which is introduction to reading. They essentially perceive whole words as glyph until some adult points them to the concept of letters (or if they are very smart, they figure it out themselves). When they enter school they start to learn that systematically. After half a year they can typically read short stories. (Here school starts in August/September, and at my family, reading the Christmas story was always the responsibility of the first-grader. Later that year there had been reading competitions and book talks in class.) By the end of class two, you have read tons of books. (Likely still below 100, but still quite some.)

> 4 months which is "forever" at that age.

Exactly and think of what they learn in 6 years. They doubled their age in that time.

> Giving historic books to grade 6 is exactly the absurd thing that will convince them books cant be fun.

I think that really depends on what you mean by historic books. Colloquial books from a century ago are indistinguishable from contemporary books, 200 years ago, they start to have some older words, but are still readable by a young child. 500 years ago is still intelligible, but for a child becomes more something to laugh at, rather then something they read, do to all those words, which are now considered to be improper. Your child likely won't read that on its own motivation, although it can be fun for a few minutes. 1000 years ago, the book will be in Latin, so your child won't even try.

The issue with books in the "native language" classes is much less their raw age, but that they are mostly plays or the new literature genre from that time. To me the play from 50 years ago, was really boring, but the fairy tales from 200 years ago was what I read at night below the blanket, when my parents wanted me to sleep. Yes school lead to me loosing interest in books, but that was not because the book was boring per se, but because we dissected the books until it was like a dead corpse.

> And unless the parents really went out of their way to introduce them to interesting books, to try again and again with different books, you are loosing them with that entirely.

Not really. The issue at that age is more the book supply then the demand. Reading is maybe 35-45% [0] of their wake time at that age. Try reading that much as an adult. At some point I needed to resort to reading the bible (the boring parts), because there was no book in my bookcase I haven't read, after I have already read all the history books in my parents bookcase, that sounded fun.

[0] To do the math:

A child sleeps >10h at night and has 1-1.5h after-lunch nap. So say 14 wake hours, Of this they spend 6 hours in school, which is mostly math or english, so say 40% reading. They take the school bus to and from school, which is mostly talking and reading. After school they also read, so maybe 2h. Then they likely stay on the playground for 3 hours or something, so no reading during that time. Before or after they do homework, most of which involves reading. English anyway and in math you also need to read the exercise descriptions. Then in the late afternoon and before going to bed they still read a bit of their own books, so maybe again 2h.

(6*0.4 + 2 + 2) / 14 = 45.7%

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#322
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the world’s most technologically advanced civilization was built by politics and institutions that killed and displaced the native Americans then glorified that effort in movies and television. The guys who built the moon rocket and silicon valley grew up playing cowboys and indians.

Nothing is pure. You are ignoring quite a lot, and quite a lot that distinguishes that society and its peers different from than the others, far less accomplished. The question is not purity, but facing our own faults, personal and societal, do we give up and indulge them or do we keep our vision and confidence and keep improving? So many push so hard against liberty and justice.

You're moving the goalposts. You made a good point earlier: "for people to survive and thrive, they need politics and institutions that don't kill them and that produce CO2 scrubbers."

We know what "politics and institutions" created the CO2 scrubbers (i.e. our present technologically advanced and prosperous society). It was the ones that displaced and killed the native americans and celebrated it in movies. By your own logic, we should be teaching how to maintain those politics and institutions, so we maintain our prosperity. Insofar as there is any point in learning about history, surely it is learning about what has worked?

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to my glasses. At any sort of distance where this could be an advantage, the clock is just going to be a blur anyway. Not to mention, how often are you in a situation where you want to know what time it is, but the nearest clock is far enough away that it being analogue becomes an actual advantage?

Interesting, I also have glasses and am short-sighted, but for me light-emitting objects blur much faster than solid objects. It depends very much on the light type, frequency and brightness, but most LEDs, which most digital clocks use, tend to have an overgleaming effect, which makes them unreadable due to being a block of light. > Not to mention, how often are you in a situation where you want to know what time it…

> All the time? Being in a train station,

Phone. Or a wristwatch if you're that type.

> a (class)room (during exam),

My last 7+ exams were all done on a computer. That clock was a lot closer than any that happen to be on a wall.

> in the kitchen, walking on the street, etc.

Phone. Or wristwatch again.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I also have glasses and am short-sighted, but for me light-emitting objects blur much faster than solid objects. It depends very much on the light type, frequency and brightness, but most LEDs, which most digital clocks use, tend to have an overgleaming effect, which makes them unreadable due to being a block of light. > Not to mention, how often are you in a situation where you want to know what time it…

> All the time? Being in a train station, Phone. Or a wristwatch if you're that type. > a (class)room (during exam), My last 7+ exams were all done on a computer. That clock was a lot closer than any that happen to be on a wall. > in the kitchen, walking on the street, etc. Phone. Or wristwatch again.

> Phone. Or a wristwatch if you're that type.

Sure, but why would I look down, when there is a clock in every direction I look at. I wristwatch would also be analog again.

> My last 7+ exams were all done on a computer. That clock was a lot closer than any that happen to be on a wall.

I have no clue how your university does prevent cheating, but ok. Here any kind of network-connected(/connectable) device is forbidden. And then there is math, where the only thing you are allowed to have is a pen and the formulary (and maybe a ruler).

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#325
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was so dispiriting to read, even enjoy, the assignment and then get dinged because you couldn’t remember whether the protagonist put on an otherwise irrelevant blue sweater or red jacket. Maybe things have really changed a lot since I was in school, but that was certainly not the type of questions that were asked of set works. The questions were asked such that, the more the student got into the book, the higher…

> Hard questions (only those slightly interested got these correct): Examine the tone of the conversation between $A and $B in $chapter, first from the PoV of $A and then from the PoV of $B. List the differences, if any, in the tone that $A intended his instructions to be received and the tone that $B actually understood it as. I always got As on these ... but the primary reason was that I was good at bullshitting. T…

> Again, I got As ... but they were solidly in the "kind of test that convinces you literature is stupid class" kind of questions. Unless there is some kind of actual interesting insight to be had, this question just shows how empty the whole exercise is.

You are not making much sense.

You got As in the type of question that required demonstration of a broad swath of literature ... but that just shows you how empty the question is?

WTF?

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#326

They're axing honors classes in our high schools so they can mix all the kids together for equity. But because some of the students can't read very well (even in 10th grade), they have to read the books aloud during class, since it would be inequitable to require the kids to read on their own at home. Not surprisingly, when you're rate-limited by read-aloud speed, you can't get through that many books and excerpts ar…

Who is "they"?

The first two are HS staff. The third is the students.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#327

People rarely read whole books anymore. I know very few adults in my life who read books, lots of people are put off by reading in school and never give it a try in their adult life. I think the biggest offender is summer reading assignments. I never knew a single person that actually read their book, and being expected to spend time during break reading for a school assignment definitely creates a negative associati…

If by summer reading assignments, are you referring to Scholastic summer reading programs? I quite enjoyed those as the available options for reading were very wide and I could always get some new Goosebumps books from the book fairs. But those are parent initiated, not something the school assigns. They can't really assign anything over the summer as they have no authority to do so outside of some IEP designed to get a particular student back on track.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#328
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hard questions (only those slightly interested got these correct): Examine the tone of the conversation between $A and $B in $chapter, first from the PoV of $A and then from the PoV of $B. List the differences, if any, in the tone that $A intended his instructions to be received and the tone that $B actually understood it as. I always got As on these ... but the primary reason was that I was good at bullshitting. T…

> Again, I got As ... but they were solidly in the "kind of test that convinces you literature is stupid class" kind of questions. Unless there is some kind of actual interesting insight to be had, this question just shows how empty the whole exercise is. You are not making much sense. You got As in the type of question that required demonstration of a broad swath of literature ... but that just shows you how empty t…

> You got As in the type of question that required demonstration of a broad swath of literature ... but that just shows you how empty the question is?

Yeah. I think that the key to achieving A is that you must not care and just let the creativity in your brain go. Thinking back, basically I did what LLM do today. You have to be able to vaguely associate plot points you vaguely remember from books you did not liked. You have to be able to write argument sounding constructions without care for how much they are true. Without feeling ashamed that you wrote something meaningless.

It is the kind of question that does not provide any meaningful insight to anything. The answer does not matter except for the grade. It wont give you any insight to literature. It does not demonstrate you understood something about the book either. That is why it is empty question - its only purpose is to prove you vaguely remember plot points.

Kids dont read for fun, but they have vague idea that books are something educational that is generally good to do. These sort of exercises will only convince them that reading books is both unfun drag and meaningless thing to do.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#329
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But that is not what is happening. Introduction to reading happens pre-school to class two, historic books come from say class 6 onwards. That is exactly what is happening. The pre-schooler do not really read books, that is an absurd claim. They puzzle out words and sentences. It takes so much effort, they loose attention one paragraph in and dont really recall what happened on the last page. Giving historic books…

> The pre-schooler do not really read books, that is an absurd claim. And a claim I haven't made. > They puzzle out words and sentences. Exactly, which is introduction to reading. They essentially perceive whole words as glyph until some adult points them to the concept of letters (or if they are very smart, they figure it out themselves). When they enter school they start to learn that systematically. After half a y…

First grade kids are still learning letters and are not reading books yet. Your family is an exception. Second grade kids are NOT reading tons of books yet. That is just untrue.

> Exactly and think of what they learn in 6 years. They doubled their age in that time.

I do know what they learn in 6 grade. You seem to start with some imaginary learning.

> Colloquial books from a century ago are indistinguishable from contemporary books

They are 100% distinguishable. By words, by sentence construction, by topics, by the way plot develops. Oh, and mostly by how characters act.

> Not really. The issue at that age is more the book supply then the demand.

Literally the only source of interesting books are parents. And no, english and math textbook does not count as fun reading. Neither does Shakespeare assigned in school. There is no infinite supply of fun books coming to kids.

> They take the school bus to and from school, which is mostly talking and reading

No one reads books on their way to school these days. They just dont.

> After school they also read, so maybe 2h

Kids dont read after school except for homework.

> English anyway and in math you also need to read the exercise descriptions.

This is ridiculous.

> Then in the late afternoon and before going to bed they still read a bit of their own books, so maybe again 2h.

They dont. Because, unless their parents tried again and again and radncomly hit something fun, they dont even know fun books exist.

Re: Kids Rarely Read Whole Books Anymore. Even in English Class

#330
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was so dispiriting to read, even enjoy, the assignment and then get dinged because you couldn’t remember whether the protagonist put on an otherwise irrelevant blue sweater or red jacket. Maybe things have really changed a lot since I was in school, but that was certainly not the type of questions that were asked of set works. The questions were asked such that, the more the student got into the book, the higher…

> Hard questions (only those slightly interested got these correct): Examine the tone of the conversation between $A and $B in $chapter, first from the PoV of $A and then from the PoV of $B. List the differences, if any, in the tone that $A intended his instructions to be received and the tone that $B actually understood it as. I always got As on these ... but the primary reason was that I was good at bullshitting. T…

I never understood people who say their English writing is "bullshitting". Oh you read the book and offered a plausible interpretation? That sounds to me like learning and creating.
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