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Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

grocerydive.com

321–330 of 342 posts

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in inner London. I have multiple grocery shops around me - within 10 minutes' walk I have a fishmonger, two butchers, two delicatessens, three bakeries, three greengrocers, four mid-sized organic/international grocers, six patisseries, a large Lidl, and a very large Sainsbury's supermarket. I visit those local shops once or twice almost every day to pick up fresh bits and pieces - but I still get bulky or heav…

There is a gas station that sells candy and stale jerky, a hard, sidewalk-less 10 minutes walk from me (probably 20). Not sure it would be feasible to go anywhere else. -American

You live in the suburbs, or a small turn, or a city?

How do people in your area generally get groceries?

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#322

I’m regularly surprised by how important physically picking out groceries is for a large segment of the population. We have done grocery pickup for years but the pickup lanes are almost always empty while dozens of shoppers walk into the store. To me, shopping for groceries by hand is a waste of time but it clearly has some utility for a lot of people. I wonder if that inertia is making traditional grocery shopping s…

I can pick my groceries faster and with less aggravation than I can navigate the online ordering UI's dark patterns and attempts to get me to "engage".

I noticed recently that my local trader joes is laid out like a physical dark pattern to get me to spend more money and buy shit I don’t need

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#323
Those robots consume quite a bit of energy, I think racks hanging on linkages constraining their orientation (so they don't tilt) and constrain their translational motion to cycloids, so that a hanging rack can be let loose, swing across the lowest point and be caught at approximately the starting height but on the other side.

From wikipedia,

"The cycloid, with the cusps pointing upward, is the curve of fastest descent under uniform gravity (the brachistochrone curve). It is also the form of a curve for which the period of an object in simple harmonic motion (rolling up and down repetitively) along the curve does not depend on the object's starting position (the tautochrone curve)."

So swinging a rack along the cycloid is the fastest motion without having to contribute energy (apart from that to overcome friction etc.).

So you can have a large number of racks in the "left" position, choose to open a passage between racks 34 and 35 by having all racks >=35 swing to the right position. In this way all N racks can be accessed with only the loss of space of a single planar passage.

If everything which enters is weighed before insertion, the loading and unloading could happen near reversibly by arming or releasing appropriate counterweights.

Kinetic energy can also be stored gravitationally: accelerate (by dropping the weight) and decelerate (by lifting it again) for quick motions.

Better design for the ultimate cost center, energy consumption.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloid

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#324
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The instant I read the first sentence of your comment, I thought "McMaster-Carr but for food" might be the most appealing pitch for online grocery delivery I've ever heard. ...with the caveat that McMaster's facilities are staffed by people, not robots.

Amusingly, the Kroger near me is almost that way already. Log into website, fill the cart, pick a time window, and push the button to order it. Someone starts working on it nearly instantly. The order is picked and waiting in a few minutes. It's fast as fuck. Except... --- If someone at Kroger ever reads this, then: That time window aspect is the part of the system falls down hard for me. Before I order, I have to pi…

Our Kroger has the same service, we use it a lot. Grocery stores are annoying to me, and Kroger feels almost intentionally designed to piss me off, so that's why we use the pickup order thing. Beware:

1. Prices on the app are frequently higher than prices in the store. 2. Not all options available in the store are available in the app. 3. Don't assume they'll always have it ready on time. Or, at least, don't plan your day around it.

They force you to pick a window because stores have limited staffing, and only so many orders can be fulfilled at once. "Hire more people," you say? Hah!

We don't do delivery, so I can't comment on that aspect of the service.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#325
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amusingly, the Kroger near me is almost that way already. Log into website, fill the cart, pick a time window, and push the button to order it. Someone starts working on it nearly instantly. The order is picked and waiting in a few minutes. It's fast as fuck. Except... --- If someone at Kroger ever reads this, then: That time window aspect is the part of the system falls down hard for me. Before I order, I have to pi…

Our Kroger has the same service, we use it a lot. Grocery stores are annoying to me, and Kroger feels almost intentionally designed to piss me off, so that's why we use the pickup order thing. Beware: 1. Prices on the app are frequently higher than prices in the store. 2. Not all options available in the store are available in the app. 3. Don't assume they'll always have it ready on time. Or, at least, don't plan you…

I mean: Domino's also has a limited staff.

And most of the process is very similar between Domino's and Kroger.

Just pick out a selection of stuff on a website, and order it. They both provide timely status updates of that order. They both have varying staff levels and workloads. They both certainly have days when they're running very far behind, and days when they feel like they don't have much to keep busy with.

They both have pickup and delivery options; sometimes, with different per-item prices, deals, or fees for each option.

But that's where the similarities end.

If a person orders a pizza at 6:05 and it happens to be ready by 6:30, Domino's doesn't make that person wait until 8:00 to pick it up. They want it gone; the sooner, the better. A person can pick it up (in the store, or they'll bring it out to the car) as soon as it is ready. Domino's does not want any queues at all; neither inbound, nor outbound. And this makes sense: They're in the business of selling pizzas, not storing pizzas.

Kroger isn't like that. If a person orders groceries at 6:05 and the order is ready by 6:30, then: They hold the groceries hostage until 8:00. It's as if an otherwise-complete order just isn't ripe to be picked up by a customer until it has had time to purge itself in a waiting area -- regardless of workload. The queue is mandatory, and is governed not by the physical readiness of the order but instead by the clock on the wall.

This is inconceivably stupid and unnecessary. It serves no benefit to me, nor to the corporation, nor to the employees that work for that corporation. One might think that they'd be aware that they're in the business of selling groceries, but this mandatory purgatory shows otherwise.

(I'll betcha McMaster-Carr doesn't sit on stuff while a clock runs. That's a Kroger specialization. :) )

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#326
post #38

Weird headline, totally unsupported by the article. According to the article, there were several strategic blunders, including trying the model outside of cities where lack of density cut against it. Plus the apparent dismissal any value their 2700 retail locations could provide. As far as I can tell, Kroger didn’t acknowledge anything except a change in strategy.

Doesn't that support the article? their bet was massive robotics in centralized warehouses, but that turns out not to be profitable. Unsure how the headlines doesn't align. Maybe it's different than what I'm seeing: > Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

Point me to where in the article Kroger, as a corporate statement, “acknowledged” that it “went too far”? I just re-read and it’s not there.

A proper headline would be something like “facing disappointing results, Kroger shifts robotics strategy”. It’s a subtle but important difference. Main thing being that good writing does not put words in its subjects’ mouths. Unless Kroger actually acknowledged it, you don’t say they did.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.blackstonechambers.com/news/autostore-technology... Autostore disclosed their design externally before the patents. So the patents were "invalidated" by themselves

At least read what you’re posting: AutoStore claimed that several of its European patents covering cube-storage robots and grid-based systems were infringed by Ocado’s Smart Platform robots and storage grid. The judge looked closely at the “central cavity” robot patents (EP 2 928 794 and EP 3 070 027) and two other related patents and compared them to earlier disclosures and designs. He found that the claimed inventi…

There's literally a picture on that page to compare Ocado vs their original supplier...

Let's say "heavily inspired" on instead of copied then.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have mapped the planet, yet no grocery has a freaking map to find what you need.

That's intentional. Grocery stores are laid out to encourage you to spend more. Like almost everything people complain about nowadays, this is not a tech problem, has never been a tech problem, and cannot be fixed with tech.

Third parties with tech could fix it.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a space for something in between Ocado and Uber Eats, in the 2010s I worked for a startup where you could book an Ocado style delivery slot for the next day from a bunch of different butchers, bakers, etc and then we'd send a van round to collect from all of them and deliver it to you. Annoyingly they ran out of money just a little bit too soon, I'm pretty sure if they'd managed to hold out until 2020…

FC's can have very efficient fundamentals if done right. Sharing shops with direct customers is very problematic - while appealing, the scaling just doen't work for them very well. They're also subject to a lot of variability due to contention with said customers.

This is why next day delivery slots worked - shops were able to pack orders during quiet periods rather than suddenly getting slammed with delivery orders that will be picked up in 20 minutes just as the lunch rush arrives. Some of the shops we were delivering for had people they employed specifically to do this, and generally they loved it because it meant their staff were doing something during otherwise quiet periods.

Re: Kroger acknowledges that its bet on robotics went too far

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a space for something in between Ocado and Uber Eats, in the 2010s I worked for a startup where you could book an Ocado style delivery slot for the next day from a bunch of different butchers, bakers, etc and then we'd send a van round to collect from all of them and deliver it to you. Annoyingly they ran out of money just a little bit too soon, I'm pretty sure if they'd managed to hold out until 2020…

I worked in this business for over 15 years on the tech and business sides and I can say that the traditional VC-funded startup regime is fundamentally incompatible with the basic realities of the food industry. What is sort of funny about it is that in many areas there are local companies that have been around for many years doing this fantastically. As other commenters pointed out, this is essentially the milkman m…

You're absolutely right on that - what eventually killed the business was an influx of VC cash and demands for massive expansion during a period when we almost had delivering in a single city nailed.
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