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The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

wastedwind.energy

321–330 of 334 posts

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#321
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good water heaters are key. Mine is 200 liters and I've experienced cold water exactly once in three decades: One day 3 guests took hour-long showers each. Normally a family of five will never experience cold water. The one I'm getting now has two coils, one to quickly heat water at the top half, the second to heat from the bottom - they're never on at the same time. Internal heat around 75 C, mixed to cooler on the…

> 3 guests took hour-long showers each WTF showering for one hour ? That's a great way to quickly become persona non grata in my house.

Yeah.. I'm more of the "4 minutes" type myself, so I kind of didn't foresee that.

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#322
Stop treating "wasted wind" like bad luck and start treating it like a budgeting error.

Ring-fence constraint payments and convert them into a build mandate: every £1 spent curtailing in a zone next year becomes £1 of capex allocated to relieving that exact bottleneck (HVDC, transformers, phase shifters).

Pair it with a fast-track permit for projects that follow existing transport corridors and bury through parks/towns only when the cost of delay exceeds the cost premium.

Sweeten the deal locally: automatic bill credits or rooftop/heat-pump grants for residents along the route.

If we’re going to socialise the waste, we should socialise the upgrade-and make the "do nothing" option politically expensive.

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#323
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sustainable Energy Without The Hot Air has a rough estimation of the amount of energy we can generate from offshore wind. https://www.withouthotair.com/c10/page_62.shtml 16 kWh/day/person for shallow offshore and 32 kWh/day/person for deep offshore To build enough wind turbines to generate 48 kWh/day per person is estimated to require 60 million tonnes of steel. That's three times the amount of steel that the United…

That book hasn't aged well in my opinion. Reality has done much better than its doom and gloom predictions. On that very page he is doubting that the UK will ever have 33 GW of installed offshore wind capacity, but we're already at 16 GW. We don't have to generate 48 kWh/day/person for it to make sense to build a mountain of offshore wind.

I haven't read it recently but don't think the book, written at the time it was, was necessarily a bad view of things though. I think I first read it in about 2007 or so(?) so we're nearly 20 years on. A lot of it reflected the political debate and projections that were being put out by the government at the time too in what they'd allow in for e.g. offshore installations, so it was basing itself on that too.

IIRC his point was basically that you could make a concerted effort to start building nuclear now, and in 10-15 years you'd be there on having non-CO2 emitting power generation, and that if you even let one part of the renewables equation slip (e.g. banning onshore wind which was the case from 2010 onwards), then you still wouldn't have enough to meet total demand. And that in addition, the cost in terms of producing the actual mechanism to generate the power in both money and in materials in concrete + steel was vastly larger in doing it with wind/solar than with nuclear, with a lot more engineering challenges too.

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#324
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why somebody doesn’t open a datacenter in Scotland. Sounds like they have too much power… also it is a bit chilly, right?

Chilly is good. A lot of DC power is cooling. I don’t know why Northern Canada is not full of data centers. There’s untapped hydroelectric potential up there as well as free cooling. If Russia wasn’t a basketcase politically Siberia would be great too.

Plumb in some district heating and everyone wins.

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If EGL2 took 9 years to get approval, that's the fault of the Nimbies, right?

The project was proposed in 2015 but it didn't seriously start until 2020. That's purely politics. I'd say the lion's share of time was spent seeking planning permission, writing environmental impact documents, planning the route, building the justification for any compulsory purchases, consulting with interest parties, etc. Some of that would be NIMBYs, but I don't think there was a sustained campaign to hold back E…

I guess I'm using 'Nimby' in the wider sense to include all the red tape that slows down or blocks every building project in the UK. A project doesn't have to be individually targeted by Nimbies to be slowed down, they have enough regulatory quicksand to stop building wholesale. Then when you get through that, they can target your individual project.

And Nimby is politics, so I don't see a distinction between Nimby and 'purely politics'.

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The project was proposed in 2015 but it didn't seriously start until 2020. That's purely politics. I'd say the lion's share of time was spent seeking planning permission, writing environmental impact documents, planning the route, building the justification for any compulsory purchases, consulting with interest parties, etc. Some of that would be NIMBYs, but I don't think there was a sustained campaign to hold back E…

I guess I'm using 'Nimby' in the wider sense to include all the red tape that slows down or blocks every building project in the UK. A project doesn't have to be individually targeted by Nimbies to be slowed down, they have enough regulatory quicksand to stop building wholesale. Then when you get through that, they can target your individual project. And Nimby is politics, so I don't see a distinction between Nimby a…

Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but you're not seeing the distinction because you're expanding the definition of NIMBY beyond what it means (a person who objects to developments done near them).

You used a fine phrase there, "red tape", which describes all the bureaucracy over and above localised objections to national infrastructure. NIMBYs can certainly use the red tape to hold you up, but there's also NIMBY-free red tape that holds you up anyway.

[Aside: If you want a word for "globalised" NIMBYs, those are BANANAs (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything), the sorts of people who weaponise the environmental impact assessment. Some examples are https://www.vice.com/en/article/why-doesnt-america-build-thi... and https://www.palladiummag.com/2022/06/09/why-america-cant-bui... -- it seems especially galling that "environmentalists" don't want a train line that could replace 100% of air travel between LA and SF, because it might affect their specific piece of the environment, meaning that the planes just keep on flying, dumping CO2 into the atmosphere, warming the planet, and contributing to the increasingly severe weather that leads to massive destruction of their nearby environment via wildfires and such]

Under "politics" I'd include NIMBYs and red tape... and also political will. The project was proposed in 2015 and didn't really start until 2020. That's politics -- convincing the appropriate people in power that they can and should do something, and commit to funding the project, assigning the appropriate governmental bodies to begin work on it, and in this case engage the companies responsible for electricity transmission and get them to work on it too. Only then do they start planning the route, applying for planning permission, compulsory purchase, holding consultations, hearing objections, etc.

Getting the project going took 5 years, it could have been 0 years if the political will was there.

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#327
post #77
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick search points to: https://tamarindo.global/insight/analysis/uk-storage-need-in... Which claims curtailment is about 10% That's not nothing, but could also just be the cost of doing business. If you stop building when curtailment occurs at peak wind, you'll have less cheap energy when wind isn't at peak.

pumped storage efficiency is 70-80%, so too for batteries. Probably not a completely fair comparison, but for example that appears to make curtailment more efficient than storing the power. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=46756

Well, presumably electricity prices are relatively low when curtailment happens, and high when there is no curtailment.

So maybe storage can make some sense.

But before you go expand the grid or add batteries, it's probably fine to over build or curtail some more :)

Okay, I honestly don't know. Because this comes down to the numbers -- it's really just an economics exercise.

I guess my point is: scary absolute number of money spent on curtailment, makes a great headline, but doesn't mean anything.

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who opposes Power lines? Never heard that this is a thing. As a foreign influence I'd be delighted to target all infrastructure proposals and bombard it with trolls.

Power lines I don't get as a NIMBY concern. The other things I can see the argument. I bought a house partially because it has direct access to a pole mounted transformer. I've had a lot of issues with last mile power delivery in residential areas that rely on buried lines and pad mounted transformers. If a transformer on a pole blows up, it can be replaced within 4 hours. Buried lines and pad mounted transformers ca…

I guess it depends on what the common failure mode is. During the 2020 derecho our neighborhood with buried lines was without power for roughly four hours and it's the only time our power has gone out for any significant time in the 10 years I've been here. It wasn't even our buried lines that had the problem, but the lines serving them. Places in the city with poled power delivery were down for up to two weeks. There have been multiple times where houses surrounding us are out of power but ours just keeps chugging along.

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#329
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think they haven't? At least half a dozen operators have more than one data centre in Scotland, and many more have one.

Are you sure? > Despite campaigning for more data center development two years ago, not much has come to fruition in Scotland. In December of 2021, Oracle closed the Sun Microsystems data center in Linlithgow, Scotland. DataVita has opened a new data center in Glasgow in its parent company’s office development, as well as expanding its Fortis data center in August 2022. No major construction projects have been announ…

About the number of data centres in Scotland? Yes, I am sure. I have done business with operators of several of them.

You'd open them because of plenty of customer demand.

Re: The cost of turning down wind turbines in Britain

#330
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. > A solar farm that could have powered “all the households in Witney” has been refused permission by West Oxfordshire District Council. The application, by Ampyr Solar Europe, was for a site at Curbridge, south of Witney. The planning committee focused on the risk of a fire from the proposed battery storage, which they said could contaminate the water supply at a nearby wedding venue. > Cllr Nick Leverton (Con,…

>>West Oxfordshire District Council Are these the same people who refused to let Clarkson open a pub because - and I quote - "it would be too popular"?

No, that was allegedly Cotswold District Council, who refute Clarkeson's portrayal of events:

> A spokesperson for Cotswold District Council said: "We absolutely refute that any of the officers or councillors involved in working with Jeremy to realise his vision for the Coach and Horses had 'absolutely nothing positive to say' or were awkward."

> They added: "There were in fact several positive meetings between Jeremy and his team, and willing officers and councillors at Cotswold District Council.

> "These discussions explored how challenges to renovating this pub could be overcome, as part of the pre-application stage of this project. A planning application was never submitted.

> "Upon deciding not to pursue purchase of the pub, Jeremy sent an email via his planning agent thanking the council for being 'so open and supportive', and for trying to find solutions to some of the hurdles needed to overcome renovation of the pub. He stated that 'the march of time and the feasibility of getting this done within a window that works for television' had been the project's undoing."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp3ql38yk11o

Clarkeson is an entertainer whose goal is to tell a compelling story; often one that bears little resemblance to the truth.

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