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American solar farms

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Re: American solar farms

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has invested a lot of money, lives, political capital & environment to become a big oil & gas producer. One of it's potential weapons against China is that China imports most of it's oil & gas. China also has a few easy geographical choke points to prevent it from importing gas. Solar & wind plus electrical vehicles destroy this advantage. So China has many reasons to push in this direction while the US is dou…

I don't buy that it isn't in the US's strategic interest to diversify away from fossil fuels. We know the shale oil boom wont last, that larger reserves are in other countries. The Us should be diversifying now, before it runs out. To be prepared. Eventually we'll just be back to beholding to some other country for oil. It's like we were granted some breathing room and just squandering it, when we could be leaping ah…

For the record, I personally 100% agree with what you're saying & wish that was the policy. My statement above is my attempt at understanding others.

Re: American solar farms

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This gets proposed a lot. The reason it isn't more frequent is due to the cost of the structure to hold the panels & risks of people running into them. It would be great if these costs could come down. Parking lots, animal pastures & other areas could be protected & create energy at the same time.

> risks of people running into them Curious how people run into solar panels. I wonder how many ER visits say "I ran into a solar panel"

If you put solar panels in parking lots, you're adding a lot of posts to the parking lot to hold them that weren't there before. People are going to crash into those posts in parking lots often.

For example, light posts constantly get bumped in parking lots.

To hold your solar panels you need really strong posts that can both hold them and get bumped into by vehicles. Especially in the USA where you have giant vehicles & tight parking spaces.

This all adds to the cost before you even get to electricity storage & transmission.

Re: American solar farms

#323
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is for a 20 or 30 year lease. One time payment. 4k is on the high side.

It's a monthly payment.

Just to make sure we're actually in agreement: It's a _total_ of $3-4k paid out monthly over a period of 20-20 years, right?

Re: American solar farms

#325
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! I'm a little confused what the confusion is. Yes, talking about binary terms and using them as an abstraction and a summary is perfectly convenient, and can be useful, but that doesn't change the data. It's just a summary of a very complex system. The terms "female" and "male" have multiple definitions because of that. Here's an example from the dictionary: Female: (1) Of or denoting the sex that produces ova or…

It makes sense but it is a false framing. The whole point of female and male is to distinguish the two reproductive roles in sexually reproducing species, whether those are hermaphroditic or gonochoric. The sex binary is based on anisogamy, that is, two classes of gamete being of unequal size. All the "dimensions" you mention - hormones, chromosomes, etc. - are downstream of this, and they vary across species (e.g. s…

My comment is too long, so I'm going to try to separate it into 2.

> Your comment about "drawing an arbitrary line" doesn't really fit with how biologists see this either, as it's not arbitrary at all but is based on understanding the mechanisms of reproductive function and development…

I talk to biologists all the time for work. I studied biology in college and I work in science and engineering. This is how we talk about data and models in science. What I'm seeing in your response is a fairly deep misunderstanding in how science works, and that's why it might appear to you like I'm not actually answering your question. I am not "proposing a new model" about sex being a spectrum.

Let's take a step back and look at how science works and hopefully we can address this misunderstanding. I'll start with the fundamentals.

We use words to communicate about the world, but they're an imperfect medium. As a quick example, I can call an ant hill a "mountain." What information I might be trying to convey depends on: (1) definition, maybe my definition of mountain is .5 cm, (2) context, maybe I'm speaking metaphorically, (3) relevance, maybe I'm speaking from the perspective of an ant. So key things in communication are (1) definitions, (2) context, (3) relevance. Whatever word I call the object doesn't change the object in any way. This is because all words are representations (or models) of the world, and all models are, by nature, false. They cannot possibly describe every aspect of reality. Words are only as useful as the information they convey. So how can we evaluate the information in words or models?

We evaluate models by treating them as black-box functions and comparing their output to reality. We’re trying to measure how useful or predictive the model is.

How do we do this in practice? We (1) propose a hypothesis, (2) decide which variables are relevant (3) decide on necessary and sufficient conditions or some kind of function. Then we run that function and compare the output of our model to what we measure in reality.

Let’s look at a binary model for human sex. Our hypothesis is that we can define a set of criteria or definitions such that the output is either 1 “female” or 0 “male”. The definition of binary means that it can be fully and completely described by 1 or 0, nothing in the middle. For example, TRUE or FALSE is binary.

Let’s hypothesize that human sex is determined by chromosomes, so therefore XX is female (1) and XY is male (0).

XXY exists (Klinefelter Syndrome). That breaks our model. We can update our criteria. [XX is female] (1) and [XY and XXY are male] (0).

XY + no SRY exists. That also breaks our model. We can update our criteria. [XX and XY + no SRY is female](1) [XY + SRY and XXY is male (0)].

Lots of intersex conditions exist. What does that mean for our model?

To skip forward, we still do not have a defined set of necessary and sufficient criteria where we can describe all outputs of human sexual development with 1 or 0. This means the assumption that the output is binary for our model is broken. Can we still sort everything into binary categories? Sure. Nothing is stopping you from labelling something, but we understand that we’re giving up information while we’re doing this. When we talk about binary models, what we’re referring to is an output of a function or model, not just applying the labels. We do this because we can obviously just apply whatever labels to anything, there’s nothing “scientific” about it. So what’s actually important in evaluating that model is the necessary and sufficient criteria we come up with: the actual function, model etc. This is what I mean by “binary system.” You can still obviously sort the data into binary categories, but the underlying data is fundamentally a spectrum.

This is essentially called a “proof by contradiction.” We had a set of necessary and sufficient conditions, a set of defined definitions (like binary), and we found counterexamples for each one.

Another perspective could be: if I see an individual, what are the chances I could correctly guess characteristics about them (chromosomes etc) based on their phenotype? For male and female, you might be able to fairly accurately guess certain characteristics about them, probably somewhere around 80%. Does that mean that it's impossible for us to sort every individual into two categories? No. But being CAPABLE of sorting or labeling them into two categories does NOT make something binary.

To be honest, the existence of intersex alone should be sufficient to tell you that male and female are not completely “binary” concepts. So we’re dealing with some kind of discrete or continuous “spectrum.” For convenience and simplicity, let’s say it’s male, intersex, female, so discrete but not binary.

Re: American solar farms

#326
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! I'm a little confused what the confusion is. Yes, talking about binary terms and using them as an abstraction and a summary is perfectly convenient, and can be useful, but that doesn't change the data. It's just a summary of a very complex system. The terms "female" and "male" have multiple definitions because of that. Here's an example from the dictionary: Female: (1) Of or denoting the sex that produces ova or…

It makes sense but it is a false framing. The whole point of female and male is to distinguish the two reproductive roles in sexually reproducing species, whether those are hermaphroditic or gonochoric. The sex binary is based on anisogamy, that is, two classes of gamete being of unequal size. All the "dimensions" you mention - hormones, chromosomes, etc. - are downstream of this, and they vary across species (e.g. s…

Second part:

Now let’s start to address some of your points.

> "The whole point of female and male is to distinguish the two reproductive roles in sexually reproducing species, whether those are hermaphroditic or gonochoric. The sex binary is based on anisogamy, that is, two classes of gamete being of unequal size."

Yes, that's why "female" and "male" are useful abstract concepts specifically to help talk about reproduction in several species. Using these two terms, we can talk about a diverse spectrum of reproductive strategies, including hermaphroditic and gonochoric.

I think your argument breaks down to:

[1] The terms male and female are strictly to distinguish between gamete size in gonochoric species. [Already incorrect, but sure, that’s one possible definition we can use] [2] Humans are a gonochoric species [yes] [3] Therefore ALL humans are either male XOR female

Is this your argument? Because it can pretty quickly be disproven with one contradictory example: intersex humans exist. Deductively arguing from abstracts also means its application is quite limited. For example, it inherently assumes humans are reduced to their reproductive function, which is obviously false. If we’re purely arguing from the perspective of ability to reproduce, then do you have a larger category in mind for “sterile” humans, including infants, the elderly etc? Obviously not all humans are capable of reproduction, which is why it’s useful as an abstract, but that quickly falls apart once you look at concrete examples like individuals. Again, just because you CAN label everything in a binary way, it doesn’t actually mean that the underlying data is binary.

> To take one of your examples: a hirsute woman…

From your response, I don't think I was very clear with these examples. Let me see if I can make my points more clearly.

Every human has male and female aspects. If you look at one individual, how accurately could you predict certain characteristics about them?

If I say "this person has a beard," could you immediately say with 100% confidence that it was a "male"? No. You could probably guess with fairly high accuracy, about 90%, but you could not be 100% confident.

What I was hinting at with these examples is that there is no "necessary and sufficient" definitions of "male" and "female" for individuals where you can predict with 100% accuracy. It doesn't make anyone "more or less" of whatever sex they're categorized as, but these examples illustrate the complexity of the underlying system. The simple fact is that “male” and “female” labels aren’t always very predictive or relevant when being applied to individuals. Not every “male” has a penis or a prostate or is capable of reproduction, and not every “female” has a uterus, ovaries, or is otherwise capable of reproduction. Humans are more than their reproductive capabilities and simple labels such as "male" or "female" can't fully describe those aspects. Reproduction is not always relevant.

> Your comment about "drawing an arbitrary line" doesn't really fit with how biologists see this either…

Yes, when biologists are abstractly talking about reproduction, individual variation isn’t very relevant. They’re not even talking about sterile individuals. Broadly applying those types of generalizations to individuals isn’t helpful.

> Going way back upthread, this was originally about fairness in sport, male physiological advantage, …

You’re making several pretty big logic leaps in here. Let’s try to sort this out.

First, sport isn’t about reproduction. That’s irrelevant, so please stop trying to argue that gamete size has anything to do with sports. So why do we divide sports into "men" and "women" if reproduction isn't relevant? It's because you've correctly seen that sometimes there's physical, measurable differences between the two groups and we as a society want sports to have some aspect of "fairness." There’s a lot to unpack here, though and you’ve made several incorrect assumptions.

“Male physiological advantage” is an incorrect blanket assumption. Where is the “male physiological advantage” in sharp shooting? Olympic Skeet wasn’t separated by gender from 1968 until 1992, when Zhang Shan from China won the gold metal. After that it’s been divided by sex. Some sports are split by gender for different cultural reasons, and yes, in some sports men as a group tend to be much taller and have advantages in certain areas, but this isn’t as universal as you seem to think. Lots of transphobic people tend to focus on trans women in sports, but they’re dead silent on trans men doing fairly well in the Olympics. There are several examples in basketball, wrestling, swimming etc.

> he seemed to think there are medical interventions that can be performed on humans that convert males to female, which is not the case

There is so much variation in human sexual development, as discussed with intersex, that there honestly doesn’t need to be much “medical intervention.” There is a lot of overlap between the sexes, and the fact that it’s actually so hard to define a criteria to separate them, makes this all easy to understand. And that’s where gender comes in. Gender itself is largely a social construct, so we’re pretty flexible on how we define it. Basically it’s pretty easy to see that it’s a real phenomenon and as scientists, we would like to document and discuss this real phenomenon.

> Then you commented stating that sex is a spectrum. This is typically introduced into an argument to try to bolster the claim that it is possible for humans to change sex, …

Sexual development in humans is hopefully by this point fairly obviously a spectrum. Human intersex exists in many different forms. In general, sports have nothing to do with reproduction, so that’s largely irrelevant. However, we as a society would like to make playing sports generally “fair” and there are general, measurable differences between men and women, and yes, sometimes that does mean men have a physiological advantage over women in certain sports. Scientists have already looked into this, and they determined that after 2 years of hormone therapy transwomen are fairly hard to distinguish from the natural variation in ciswomen for all their metric. That’s why there have been rules in place. I’m actually not sure what the rules are for transmen, but the fact that they’re showing up to the Olympics means that they’re probably doing okay.

> So that leads into another issue of why this "sex is a spectrum" idea has been introduced to the world at large. …

Hopefully you have a better understanding of what I mean now. You’re literally using the terms as a spectrum by talking about intersex and using it to describe hermaphrodite species. Being able to apply binary labels to a system doesn’t make it “binary,” what actually matters is the criteria and the output when we’re talking about models. Does that make sense? By calling it a “spectrum,” I’m not actually introducing some new niche model, the fact that I referenced a textbook should make this clear, I’m just saying the data isn’t “binary” and that should be obvious alone from being able to describe so many different species with two terms.

Hope this clears things up!

Re: American solar farms

#327
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! I'm a little confused what the confusion is. Yes, talking about binary terms and using them as an abstraction and a summary is perfectly convenient, and can be useful, but that doesn't change the data. It's just a summary of a very complex system. The terms "female" and "male" have multiple definitions because of that. Here's an example from the dictionary: Female: (1) Of or denoting the sex that produces ova or…

It makes sense but it is a false framing. The whole point of female and male is to distinguish the two reproductive roles in sexually reproducing species, whether those are hermaphroditic or gonochoric. The sex binary is based on anisogamy, that is, two classes of gamete being of unequal size. All the "dimensions" you mention - hormones, chromosomes, etc. - are downstream of this, and they vary across species (e.g. s…

Also one more thing of note before you go into "but intersex is just error":

"Errors" are important in models. Look up Type 1 and Type 2 errors. If I had a model for hair color, and it couldn't explain red hair, it would be a pretty terrible model. As I mentioned earlier, red hair and obviously, visibly intersex are about on the same order of magnitude.

To further illustrate this concept, consider humans and horses. You'll notice there aren't human-horse hybrids. We can come up with a criteria or a model to separate humans and horses with 1's and 0's and there's nothing in the middle. That's an example of a binary system. We could come up with a bunch of terrible models too that can't differentiate between the two ("mammals"). But ultimately, I could disprove your argument about transgender in sports even ASSUMING a binary model in sex because it's pretty fundamentally irrelevant. If we can't measure the difference between two things (sports performance between ciswomen and transwomen after 2 years of hormonal therapy), then the difference doesn't really matter. The fact that there's transMEN regularly playing in the Olympics is also fairly revealing.

Re: American solar farms

#328
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Left as the same illogical hate against the right Challenge accepted. Receipts please.

Firearms for home and personal defense. Also, not to even dig deeply into the many lunacies that the progressive left became insane about during the pandemic (both sides were guilty here, but it was BOTH sides). Don't get too smug. You really think your entire half of a political spectrum is free of stupidity and irrational thinking?

Stupidity is a universal given -- we're all vulnerable to a degree.

But that wasn't my point, it was "hate against the right". See, here's the thing: the Right is now defined by literally hating the Left. "woke" has been repurposed to mean "stupid libtard shit" but nobody actually can define what that is other than cherry picking some rando ultra leftist's comments as being representative to the group as a whole.

I've lived my many years in liberal bubbles and I've never heard anyone express actual hate people on the right -- just a lot of bewilderment, disappointment, and lately a lot of fear.

The whole Red v. Blue game is a stupid simple yet highly effective trick to get the masses squabbling against each other rather than uniting to resist our owners.

Re: American solar farms

#329
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense but it is a false framing. The whole point of female and male is to distinguish the two reproductive roles in sexually reproducing species, whether those are hermaphroditic or gonochoric. The sex binary is based on anisogamy, that is, two classes of gamete being of unequal size. All the "dimensions" you mention - hormones, chromosomes, etc. - are downstream of this, and they vary across species (e.g. s…

Also one more thing of note before you go into "but intersex is just error": "Errors" are important in models. Look up Type 1 and Type 2 errors. If I had a model for hair color, and it couldn't explain red hair, it would be a pretty terrible model. As I mentioned earlier, red hair and obviously, visibly intersex are about on the same order of magnitude. To further illustrate this concept, consider humans and horses.…

I think you've missed my key point which is that sex is fundamentally defined by gamete type, and is not a post-hoc clustering of traits. The underlying biological concept is reproduction via anisogamy, which is robust across a multitude of species, humans included. Anisogamy, which you should know as you studied biology, is a reproductive strategy involving the fusion of a small gamete with a large gamete, producing a new individual.

In hermaphroditic species, the two halves of this reproductive system are both embodied in each individual, and are active either consecutively (as with sequential hermaphrodism) or concurrently (as with simultaneous hermaphrodism). In gonochoric species, these are embodied in two distinct classes of individual, via two distinct developmental pathways. Humans are a gonochoric species.

When you claim "sex is a spectrum" or "sex is bimodal", you are confusing sex characteristics with sex. These characteristics are species-specific, whereas sex itself is a cross-species categorization in which sex determination, sexual development, and sex characteristics will vary.

You comment "let's hypothesize that human sex is [always] determined by [XX or XY] chromosomes" and make the argument from this that conditions like Klinefelter syndrome and SRY-negative XY chromosomes disprove that hypothesis. Yes it does, but the hypothesis was flawed in the first place. There is no "human sex" that is different to "sex". More precisely, what you are actually talking about here are the mechanisms of sex determination and sex differentiation in humans. Analyses of DSDs have been very useful in gaining a deeper understanding of these, just as analyses of rare pathologies in other systems do.

Claiming "sex is a spectrum" adds no utility here. It conflates development with definition, and is used for rhetorical ends rather than advancing scientific knowledge. As our conversation has shown, there's not even any consistent understanding of what this spectrum might look like or where individuals should be placed on such a spectrum.

You mention sterility, but this doesn't change someone's sex. The elderly and infertile retain their sex because it's developmental, not performative. This is also why, for example, we can recognize worker bees as female despite them being infertile.

Going back to sports, the available evidence does not show that male athletes weakened through testosterone suppression are equivalent to female athletes. It is not possible to unbuild the body of a human male and rebuild it as female. Your claim that "scientists have already looked into this, and they determined that after two years of hormone therapy transwomen are fairly hard to distinguish from the natural variation in ciswomen for all their metric" misrepresents the research and doesn't take into account what we see performance-wise when these males are allowed to compete in women's sport. Note that while we observe "transwomen" dominating women's competitions, we don't see the same for "transmen" in men's categories, even when they've been on testosterone for many years. This in itself highlights the impact of sex differences in athletic performance.

Re: American solar farms

#330
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also one more thing of note before you go into "but intersex is just error": "Errors" are important in models. Look up Type 1 and Type 2 errors. If I had a model for hair color, and it couldn't explain red hair, it would be a pretty terrible model. As I mentioned earlier, red hair and obviously, visibly intersex are about on the same order of magnitude. To further illustrate this concept, consider humans and horses.…

I think you've missed my key point which is that sex is fundamentally defined by gamete type, and is not a post-hoc clustering of traits. The underlying biological concept is reproduction via anisogamy, which is robust across a multitude of species, humans included. Anisogamy, which you should know as you studied biology, is a reproductive strategy involving the fusion of a small gamete with a large gamete, producing…

I think you're still missing several key points. Biological sex is more than just gametes. This isn't some weird, niche theory, this is just basic biology. Even if it were just gametes, there are still several intersex conditions. The data is not inherently binary, we measure models by their outputs. This is a common misunderstanding from those not very familiar with how models are used in science and math.

> You comment "let's hypothesize that human sex is [always] determined by [XX or XY] chromosomes" and make the argument from this that conditions like Klinefelter syndrome and SRY-negative XY chromosomes disprove that hypothesis. Yes it does, but the hypothesis was flawed in the first place. There is no "human sex" that is different to "sex". More precisely, what you are actually talking about here are the mechanisms of sex determination and sex differentiation in humans. Analyses of DSDs have been very useful in gaining a deeper understanding of these, just as analyses of rare pathologies in other systems do.

I'm literally talking about human sexual phenotype. That's it. Phenotype does not always match genotype, that's the whole point. Do you understand the difference between genotype and phenotype, because that's half the point of what I've been discussing. You've also missed my entire point about how we measure models in science and what a model is. That whole demonstration was to show you how we actually test models in science.

> Claiming "sex is a spectrum" adds no utility here. It conflates development with definition, and is used for rhetorical ends rather than advancing scientific knowledge. As our conversation has shown, there's not even any consistent understanding of what this spectrum might look like or where individuals should be placed on such a spectrum

I'm not claiming anything. Human sexual phenotype is not binary, as demonstrated through a binary model with proof by contradiction. This is how we evaluate models. Even if we assume a binary model, as I've mentioned, it doesn't actually matter much since there isn't a huge difference between the two genders for most sports. There are measurable differences for others, but that has nothing to do with gamete size and everything to do with different levels of hormones like testosterone, estrogen et cetera, not gametes. Once again, there is significant overlap between the two sexes to start with.

> Going back to sports, the available evidence does not show that male athletes weakened through testosterone suppression are equivalent to female athletes. It is not possible to unbuild the body of a human male and rebuild it as female.

I'm honestly baffled by this statement. No one is "rebuilding" anyone or anything. I'm not actually sure what you mean by this, but this just further demonstrates that we've moved very far away from anything like science. This just sounds like a strange straw man. If you can't even acknowledge that genotype can be different from phenotype, then there's no point in further discussion, this just seems silly.

> Going back to sports...

Men and women have a lot more overlaps than differences. This has been demonstrated. It was actually surprising to me when I first learned about it. We literally do see plenty of transmen in the Olympics, so I'm not quite sure where you're getting this from. Yes, there are differences too, but again, it has nothing to do with actual gametes and mostly it has to do with testosterone and possibly different forms of estrogen etc. What you're calling "sex characteristics."

Here are a few papers: Sex differences and athletic performance. Where do trans individuals fit into sports and athletics based on current research? https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10641525/

Effect of gender affirming hormones on athletic performance in transwomen and transmen: implications for sporting organisations and legislators https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577?ref=goodoil.news

Transwomen might still be a little faster than ciswomen at least a year after hormone therapy, but most of the other metrics were within normal variation after 1-2 years hormone therapy.

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