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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#321

Post by selfmodruntime »

angry_octet wrote: post #286
pembrook wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

- All your fellow citizens keep voting for said welfare state/pension system (which is undoubtedly pro-Boomer and has unsustainably low retirement ages and large benefits). - The lack of energy security is because the Red/Greens convinced everywhere except France (go Framatome!) to give up nuclear. I wonder why resource rich Russia would push such an outcome... - Europe needs to spend its savings to get nuclear going…

> All your fellow citizens keep voting for said welfare state/pension system (which is undoubtedly pro-Boomer and has unsustainably low retirement ages and large benefits).

60% of the voting block is above 55. Of course they would.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#322

Post by the_gipsy »

Xelbair wrote: post #312
jdiez17 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the legally accurate description of the AfD [1]. Just like it is legally correct to call Björn Höcke a fascist. [1] https://medienservice.sachsen.de/medien/news/1071656

There's distinction between legality, reality and morality. Most of the time no one uses full formal legal terms in normal conversation. I don't support AfD, I'm not German either - i just agree with parent poster's observation that for some reason left extremism(and I'm talking actual eco-terrorism for example) is more widely 'accepted' in public space when talking to Germans. Meanwhile mentioning even slightly Righ…

People that vote and support the far right do it as reaction, that is likely. But not to "extreme left nonsene" appearing. That's just a pretext.

The real reason, to which they react, is that they can no longer covertly express and exercise their ideas.

In other words, it's a reaction to getting publicly called out about being racist, misogynistic, homophobic, xenophobic etc.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#323

Post by Parae »

notrealyme123 wrote: post #251
hopelite wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has neither now. It seems you were sleeping on duty. But I guess you can’t guard against something you either do not have the capacity to or do not wish to see.

Please clarify how people in Germany are unfree and unsecure now. Last time I checked we had free votes and I could say that I hate Merz.

Being free to vote doesn't make you feel free and secure. It's not even safe to attend to a protest to ask for a ceasefire in Gaza. So yeah, you can say "I hate Merz", but don't even try to say "Free Palestine"...

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#324

Post by selfmodruntime »

onli wrote: post #313
angry_octet wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- All your fellow citizens keep voting for said welfare state/pension system (which is undoubtedly pro-Boomer and has unsustainably low retirement ages and large benefits). - The lack of energy security is because the Red/Greens convinced everywhere except France (go Framatome!) to give up nuclear. I wonder why resource rich Russia would push such an outcome... - Europe needs to spend its savings to get nuclear going…

Nuclear energy is very expensive and does not necessarily provide energy security. You just have to check on the energy usage in France during the summer, when the nuclear power plants had to be shut down repeatedly now. Pushing nuclear power would neither provide reliable nor cheap energy. The route forward is solar, hydro, wind and batteries.

Nuclear, while not cheap, is clean. Coal and Gas account for 40% of Germany's energy production. All this endless talk about nuclear and whatnot, but other EU country's have been net neutral for CO2 emissions for a while now. A goal that Germany will never reach.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#325

Post by selfmodruntime »

gambiting wrote: post #303
pembrook wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>>I have over 50% of my income taken from me into a collapsing welfare state/pension system That's incredibly high - where do you live if you don't mind saying?

Anywhere in Germany? Our pre-tax income is pre-pre-taxed. Before your employer pays out your wage, they are taxed for it as well.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#326

Post by marcus_holmes »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #265
marcus_holmes wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taking citizenship away from those who voluntarily join terrorist organizations like ISIS? 100% agree with this, how could you not? Given the UK's recent use of anti-terrorist legislation to arbitrarily classify a protest organisation as terrorists, this is really dangerous. If the government can classify any organisation as terrorists, and then remove citizenship from any members of that organisation, that is horr…

>Given the UK's recent use of anti-terrorist legislation to arbitrarily classify a protest organisation as terrorists If your current laws allow for such oppressive abuse on the population without due process, then these new laws won't make things any worse for the people and you're fighting the wrong things here, if you think that taking citizenship away form registered ISIS members is the biggest problem.

I disagree completely. Citizens are protected by laws, such as the First Amendment, that are not applied to non-citizens (see the Julian Assange mess for details). If the government can designate a group of people as terrorists, and remove their citizenships for being terrorists, then they can additionally apply yet more tribulations on those people while not straying out of the legal protections afforded to citizens.

You keep saying "ISIS" like it's some magic incantation that makes everything else OK. Try saying "any organisation the government disapproves of" instead, and see how that fits your mental model of what's acceptable. For example:

> you're fighting the wrong things here, if you think that taking citizenship away from any organisation that the government disapproves of is the biggest problem.

I think you'll agree that this would be a big f**ing problem.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#327

Post by the_gipsy »

SebKba wrote: post #248
egeozcan wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AfD is classified as extreme-right not only in the eyes of the public, but also by German intelligence. Therefore I'd personally expect them to support potential tools that authoritarian governments would find useful.

It's the classical playbook. Capture the media, declare the opposition illegal, bye bye democracy. The public was sold this Nazi story about the AfD by the established powers to keep them down. Looking at what has been going on it's wild to me to call the AfD authoritarian compared the the Altparteien...

I think you need to go back to Grundschule and study the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#328

Post by selfmodruntime »

mfru wrote: post #295
pembrook wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You are not living under socialism, but under capitalism, don't try to paint it another way.

No, the defined economic model in Germany is called "Social market economy", not capitalism. It is one of the systems furthest removed from capitalism that is not yet Socialism (or similar systems). It's a regulated market economic model and it is designed to sit exactly in the middle between laissez faire capitalism and socialism. You can read this up if you like.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#329

Post by adastra22 »

shakna wrote: post #258
dinkumthinkum wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know. It seems like from what you saying that you and honestly an enormous amount of people need to actually learn about 20th century European history and WWII. People are throwing around these terms of NAZI and Gestapo and all of this and I think they have no idea what they mean. The left is not against authoritarian. The left does not even want to really eliminate the police. They just want to be the ones t…

The "far left" is anarchy. I don't really see anarchists wanting to keep police around.

Far left has traditionally meant communism.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#330

Post by selfmodruntime »

jdiez17 wrote: post #278
pembrook wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is the legally accurate description of the AfD [1]. Just like it is legally correct to call Björn Höcke a fascist. [1] https://medienservice.sachsen.de/medien/news/1071656

While I agree with this decision, it was not made by an independent court. Courts are often stacked with politicians in Germany.
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