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Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

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Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#321

Post by phil21 »

jayknight wrote: post #232
mercanlIl wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IME (in Canada), the cash discount is surprisingly close to 15%, which is approximately the sales tax in most provinces.

Here in the deep (American) South, small businesses give discounts for cash because those global elites are trying to take away our cash and want to track us or whatever. To that mindset, cash is a way to resist a theoretical oppression.

This is the reason I try to pay everything I reasonably can with cash. I’m about as northern as you get.

I’m definitely looked as crazy in my friend group from time to time, but over the years I’ve just become known as the guy who will always have cash on him if necessary so I guess the walking ATM bit helped with acceptance of it?

I figure that if folks don’t take a stand and use cash even if they don’t need to now, we will lose the ability to later. I don’t want to live in a world where all my purchases are mineable, because that eventually turns into monitored and then authorized.

The inconvenience is a small price to pay for freedom from surveillance.

It has amused me though over the years how bad cash handling skills have become. When I was a cashier as a teenager 25+ years ago, myself and all my fellow coworkers could break change at relative light speed and often just from mental math/memory. Now it’s amusing watching a young cashier give change back on a $48.31 order after handing them a $100 bill. Sometimes takes longer than the proverbial grandma writing a check back in my day.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#322

Post by Too »

0points wrote: post #162
Etheryte wrote: post #5

Some context might be useful here. I spent some time living Sweden not too long ago and Swedes practically don't use cash. It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal, to the point that most don't have any at all. Digital payments are very convenient and deeply integrated, so long as you have a local ID which allows you use the local payment system Swish etc. This worked nice…

> It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal As a swede, your statement is outlandish and false. We use cash all of the time.

If your local hairdresser gives you a cheaper price when paying cash, wouldn't you assume tax evasion? (criminal).

Someone selling a used bike, or other items of similar value, on second hand market and not accepting Swish would maybe not directly be considered criminal, but would for sure raise an extra eyebrow about the origins of the goods.

Otherwise correct, nobody would blink if you use cash for other daily purchases like ice cream or groceries, even if unusual.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#323

Post by phil21 »

dheera wrote: post #316
mrtksn wrote: post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

Cryptocurrency could also solve this problem. A "debit" card could have 1000 crypto wallets, each with $10 in them. If you want to pay $90, it forks over keys to 9 of the wallets, and they get drained by the merchant as soon as they have a connection.

This would be vulnerable to a double spending attack. Pretty trivially too unless I’m missing something.

If it became common I imagine it would stop being so quickly as fraud would rapidly catch up.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#324

Post by lawn »

Etheryte wrote: post #5

Some context might be useful here. I spent some time living Sweden not too long ago and Swedes practically don't use cash. It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal, to the point that most don't have any at all. Digital payments are very convenient and deeply integrated, so long as you have a local ID which allows you use the local payment system Swish etc. This worked nice…

It's true that cash is rarely used in Sweden but it's out of convenience not because it's "dirty and criminal".

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#325

Post by matsemann »

noduerme wrote: post #318
renhanxue wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a cash register and handling cash costs money too, doesn't it? It's just a cost of doing business.

No, it really doesn't, besides the fixed investment of buying a cash register. The idea of being forced to hand over a percentage of all my earnings to private company is abominable. I pay taxes to the elected government, not to some bank. It's why I only accept checks, ACH transfers or cash as payment, and it saves me 3% of my income a year over taking credit cards.

In the EU fees are capped at around 0.3 % I believe.

And you're mistaken if you think cash is cheaper for most stores. You risk theft (so need to pay for measures against that), you have straight losses from mistakes, have to spend time handling and counting cash, spend time depositing, spend time buying change, etc etc

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#326

Post by omk »

g-mork wrote: post #47
mrtksn wrote: post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

The EMV standard has long supported an offline transaction flow. AFAIK it was the default almost everywhere in Finland circa 2011, contactless there was almost always instantaneous. Digging into why that was compared to the invariable wait when using contactless in the UK revealed this flow. The card has a variety of risk counters on it that allow it to securely decide whether an offline transaction can proceed, at l…

I think metro trains in countries like The Netherlands and Singapore use this approach where in you tap your cards and entry and exit and you are billed usually somewhere at the end of the day.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#327

Post by phil21 »

HWR_14 wrote: post #183
gambiting wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the UK and I have friends who will tell you hand on heart that they have never handled a £50 note. They know they exist but they haven't had one.

Is that just because it's an unpopular bill? Most Americans have probably never used a $50 bill either.

This used to be true, but the last few years I’ve noticed many more ATMs and even people handing out $50 bills.

They are effectively becoming the new $20 with inflation continuing upwards, and I expect their popularity to continue to increase.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#328

Post by phil21 »

mhandley wrote: post #196
gambiting wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the UK and I have friends who will tell you hand on heart that they have never handled a £50 note. They know they exist but they haven't had one.

And if you do get one somehow, it's really hard to spend. Many places won't accept them.

I use them regularly and have never had anyone not accept them.

I have had many places reject $100 bills though.

I’m that weirdo that tries to pay cash for most everything, so sample size is large and across a diverse set of businesses.

Due to what I tend to pay cash for these days (lunches, drinks with a friend, etc.) and prices being what they are, they are rapidly becoming my “go-to” denomination.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#329

Post by roywiggins »

ta1243 wrote: post #305
rr808 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was normal that you had to show ID that matched the card name, and compare the signatures too. Now the signatures are just a spot to draw something funny.

In the 80s and 90s in the UK you just signed. The card imprint was embossed by the machine which put it onto the carbon, and that was sent off to the bank for payment later in the week, like cheques. I last used a carbon credit card in the early 00s. Electronic swipe and sign for a credit card had gone pretty much everywhere I went except the US by about 2010

I was charmed to have my US credit card read by an imprinter at a corner shop in the UK, circa 2014.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#330

Post by majkinetor »

avianlyric wrote: post #223
devmor wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of internet payments work this way already anyways, not many gateways require auth before capture, processors/payfacs just do it because it gives lower interchange and reduces risk.

That depends on where you are. But all the major networks expect auths before capture, even if it isn’t technically enforced, and will punish gateways and merchants who have low auth rates. Auth before capture doesn’t generally reduce interchange. What it primarily does is shift liability in the event of a dispute. If a chargeback is raised, and no auth happened, then the merchant simply looses immediately. They have…

I always wondered how come that some online merchants where I record the card do not ask for auth or 2 factor and some other does. For example, I have recorded my card info in a webapp that I use to pay the bills, and it never asks for anything, which is good, as I have many bills to pay, and I wouldn't want spam of 2FAs. Can you provide some technical terminology on this behavior or links, since you seem to be in the knows. Thanks.
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