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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#321

Post by teiferer »

whoknowsidont wrote: post #182
ghssds wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

>It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. For people in specific classes that benefit from networks and status: it is not. It should be default. If you abuse your power and position, it should have cascading effects not just for you but people that benefited from it. This idea that only one person at fault when there are 10's of people that hide behind the crime is just non-sense…

Collective punishment also has done immeasurable damage to society and I'm glad that most reasonable systems of law do not consider it legal.

Go after the guilty party and revert whatever benefits they got. If money went to dependents, that money is to be seized. But those who received the money are not at fault per se. Unless they helped in the crime, then they are obviously guilty too, but not of receiving fund but for helping committing a crime.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#322

Post by asacrowflies »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #296
Loughla wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just false though. For poor people, if you have a conviction, it follows you forever and impacts your life negatively in a multitude of ways.

This is what people always say, but it sure seems like that guy was able to get a job as School Superintendent in Iowa. His past didn't get in the way of actually getting the job. It was only when ICE showed up that people noticed.

What horrible crime did that guy commit "firearm charge" you mean being told to put a hunting gun in the car then instantly ticketed for "improper storage" by a racist ranger? The horror.... So glad we got that one /s

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#323

Post by Loughla »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #296
Loughla wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just false though. For poor people, if you have a conviction, it follows you forever and impacts your life negatively in a multitude of ways.

This is what people always say, but it sure seems like that guy was able to get a job as School Superintendent in Iowa. His past didn't get in the way of actually getting the job. It was only when ICE showed up that people noticed.

Yes if you lie about your past, you can do those things. Correct.

Not sure how that's relevant.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#325

Post by PantaloonFlames »

gregoryl wrote: post #164
peterpeppers wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 2010s, we had a similar situation but it wasn’t illegal. I used to work for a large drug distributor both pre and during the opioid epidemic. At the time (pre-SUPPORT Act), distributors weren’t required to notify the DEA about anomalous ordering so we didn’t provide data to law enforcement unless they sent a subpoena. To increase profits, we identified our best customers of opioids and updated our inventory tr…

It really seems like you have effectively caused the deaths of many people through your actions. Does that have a lingering impact on you?

Judging actions taken at the time with the benefit of what we know now, is not a fair way to assess.

Sure we could say it was obvious they were pushing lots of pills. But this was a legal product.

Someone working for an NFL team trying to sell tickets , or for Starbucks trying to promote frappucinos, … these actions seem fine. We know the risks, but we acknowledge and move on.

But if it turns out that new data, 3 years from now, shows some huge uptick in head injuries among college players. Or high school. And we can attribute this to the influence of pro leagues, well…. The actions of the people participating in the enterprise now get considered in a different light.

Or if we gain new (as if we need it) data on the impact of sugar and caffeine on young people, then people who work for Starbucks or McDonald’s or basically any prepared food business, … we will judge them differently ?

People who decided to put lead additives in motor fuel had no idea that they would be causing brain disorders , generations down the road.

What do we do then? Refuse to take any action for fear of some possible future negative impact ?

It’s not appropriate to judge this way. We learn as we go, and we can say “if we knew then, what we know now…” but it’s not clear in the moment. A difficult line to draw.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#326

Post by closewith »

collinmcnulty wrote: post #302
closewith wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to fight corruption and unethical behaviour, start with a just society that doesn't tie a person's value and well-being directly to their income. Otherwise you're fighting incentives and will never win.

You don’t get to a just society by not fighting corruption. Ask yourself not what “engineers globally” can do, but what you can do. Historically, pressure from the educated middle class has made huge impacts on culture and society.

Corruption is both a systemic and moral problem. You can’t build a just society without confronting corruption and you can’t sustain anti-corruption without reducing inequality.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#327

Post by fragmede »

thyristan wrote: post #70
criddell wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software engineering could become a real profession with licensing like mechanical, electrical, chemical, civil, and other engineering professions. If you do something unethical, you could be sued for malpractice and lose your license to practice. The code of ethics for Professional Engineers works even though it isn’t any of the things you say are necessary.

Professional Engineers signed off on on broken dams ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brumadinho_dam_disaster ), leaking chemical plants ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster ), exploding reactors and how (not) to operate them ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster ) and "high enough" sea walls ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_nuclear_accident ). There are a ton more examples. All highly…

Can you imagine how much worse it would be without that? Because how do you show the negative? There have definitely been cases where professionally licensed engineers have said no, or refused to sign off on something, or walked off the job, or otherwise have changed the course of human history for the better because of that code of ethics. That there have been failures in the system doesn't indight the concept as a whole. Software runs the world these days, it's time to grow up.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#328

Post by fragmede »

tengwar2 wrote: post #297
sltr wrote: post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

No. I oppose any formal requirement to practice software development. And this isn't because I disagree about the requirement to be ethical, but because it would draw a moat of "professionalisation" around software development, excluding new entrants. It's a fashionable trend across many disciplines: it starts innocuously with informal groups and seminars. Then someone starts one or more professional bodies which dev…

Those are all fair points, but the Internet and smartphones happened. Software is a necessity for existing in society these days. Yeah it sucks that we'd be pulling up the drawbridge. Donate some of your software developer salary to non-profits to make testing accessible to whichever groups you see as the younger version of you to assuage your guilt. Crowdstrike shouldn't have been possible. Mulitple airlines going down for days because they botched an upgrade because it wasn't properly resourced. Someone cranking out some silly shit on the weekend doesn't need licensing, but having unprotected S3 buckets full of drivers license photos of your users in this day and age should be criminally liable.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#329

Post by fragmede »

PantaloonFlames wrote: post #325
gregoryl wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really seems like you have effectively caused the deaths of many people through your actions. Does that have a lingering impact on you?

Judging actions taken at the time with the benefit of what we know now, is not a fair way to assess. Sure we could say it was obvious they were pushing lots of pills. But this was a legal product. Someone working for an NFL team trying to sell tickets , or for Starbucks trying to promote frappucinos, … these actions seem fine. We know the risks, but we acknowledge and move on. But if it turns out that new data, 3 yea…

> People who decided to put lead additives in motor fuel had no idea that they would be causing brain disorders , generations down the road.

In that case, they totally did. The people who pushed leaded gasoline knew it was dangerous, but they did it anyway! By the 1920s–30s, it was already well known in medicine that lead caused neurological damage, especially in children. Workers at DuPont and Standard Oil plants developed hallucinations, seizures, and many died. What's abhorrent was where industry executives and some government allies downplayed or suppressed evidence of the harms.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#330

Post by Chris2048 »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #290
Spooky23 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you commit any number of stupid or criminal acts, you are legally blacklisted from the financial industry for life.

Should be unable to be a politician, or take part in the political process beyond voting (eg party donations), too.

which would incentivise politically motivated charges for opponents.
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