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UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

petition.parliament.uk

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Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#321

Post by Avamander »

Etheryte wrote: post #43
dijit wrote: post #3

As well as the Estonia eID system works (aside from that time it got hacked[0] and that other time they leaked all the photos[1]) and how well a digital (non-government) system works in Scandinavia… I have to say… As a Dual British/Swedish Citizen, I really do not trust the UK government. They have proven over and over and over, that at every opportunity presented they will increase their own authority. I don’t belie…

Having a vulnerability is very different to getting hacked though. To date, there hasn't been a single breach of Estonia's ID system itself as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong? And that's saying something given the adversary is Russia. Reading through your link, the leaked pictures incident was a separate external service that's not tied to the ID system itself.

You're basically correct. But it's also a weird thing to refute in the first place? How do you hack a "passport" or your "social security card"? Artisanal elliptic curves from Russia and extremely deep corruption in most branches of the government?

Most human-related problems around bootstrapping one's identity still remain the same and have to be solved. Electronic identity or not. (Also see the XKCD about the "wrench attack")

But a proper ID system gives a nation the opportunity to rely on elliptic curve cryptography and an EAL4+ SmartCard or SIM. Not on a pinky promise about identity based on knowing some number, some face pics or having a gas bill.

Verizon could still leak your hypothetical future e-SSN. But then it wouldn't be sufficient for identity theft or impersonating you in some places. That's not what would be an "identity" any more.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#322

Post by dyauspitr »

dijit wrote: post #3

As well as the Estonia eID system works (aside from that time it got hacked[0] and that other time they leaked all the photos[1]) and how well a digital (non-government) system works in Scandinavia… I have to say… As a Dual British/Swedish Citizen, I really do not trust the UK government. They have proven over and over and over, that at every opportunity presented they will increase their own authority. I don’t belie…

> I don’t believe I have personally witnessed any other advanced economy that so ardently marches towards authoritarianism.

Are you familiar with what is happening in the US? Personally a digital ID is a far cry from troops on the ground in major cities and government backed militias detaining people without probable cause.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#323

Post by Avamander »

iamnothere wrote: post #317
Avamander wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please understand that supposedly poor data quality is not a defence against an authoritarian country wanting to implement a social credit system. Some national ID system won't make such ambitions significantly easier, but lack of such a system causes exactly the issues you quoted. So is this hypothetical social credit system in the hands of an incompetent government worth it all? Over identity theft and the multi-bi…

And yet authoritarian countries without such central ID have historically had to use other less targeted methods of oppression, which creates pushback and dissent within the population, leading to either the downfall of the government or intensive reforms. The threat of a “clean” system of oppression is that it will only catch actual dissidents, without sweeping in innocents. This could freeze out any chance of effec…

> One can look around the US today to see why this lack of ID may be a good thing.

You have an identity though. You use other things as an ID in the end. Often shoehorned into fulfilling that task and mostly very cumbersome.

That's why it can be stolen, that's why "identity theft" is a multi-billion dollar thing. Thats why you keep your SSNs and I guess also CC#s rather tightly guarded.

> Protestors who take steps to mask their identity are not easily identified, apprehended, and prosecuted, which has led the administration to overreach in their reaction to dissent.

There's nothing about an electronic ID that would make this different from now. It makes no practical difference for oppression. If you don't have an SSN then other things about you are unique enough for identifying you. I'd say that's why it's even vaguely tolerated anyways.

> Inefficiency is an escape hatch.

I rather think it lulls you into a false sense of safety. Inefficiency in existing "numbering systems" can be overcome with resources. You truly do not lack an ID system, a number, computerization nor identity that could protect you.

A lack of one number is not really protection against any of that.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#324

Post by n4r9 »

kimixa wrote: post #7
n4r9 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much you're loading into "simply practicing free speech".

The last one that made the rounds here ended up being carefully cut to give a specific impression (and the initial presented commentary straight up lies), and when the "full story" came out it turned out to be a lot less "simply practicing free speech" than implied. But retractions never get the same visibility, and it's already made the impression they wanted the post to make. Not a great site but gives the gist: ht…

Might not be what you're referring to, but: a couple of months ago a user posted this comment [0] claiming the linked video showed police offices arresting and threatening to jail an old grandmother in the middle of the night, simply for "liking facebook posts the gov doesn’t like"

Needless to say there were no arrests, no jail time, not even threats of jail time, it was 1:30pm, the woman was 54 years old, and she had posted comments calling for a councillor's resignation.

There's an argument in there about whether councillors have a bit too much influence on local police behaviour. But it gets drowned out by hyperbole, embellishment, and an over-eagerness to link it all up to a nation-wide conspiracy.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44593022

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#325

Post by Avamander »

agnishom wrote: post #219
crazygringo wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I buy something online my payment and delivery address is all they should need. That's what verifying your identity is for . The payment. This cuts down on fraud. My credit cards often require me to enter a code they text me for a purchase to go through, when it's somewhere online I've never shopped before. That's confirming my identity. And my credit card needed my identity originally to look up my credit histo…

The "credit card" model for buying stuff seems to be flawed. When you give some company your credit card number and CVV to buy something, they could always turn around and give the number to someone else. The fix is very simple, but requires more interaction: (1) You ask merchant for stuff (2) Merchant sends you a "money claim" (3) you sign your money claim (4) the merchant takes the signed claim to the bank (5) the…

That's basically how PSD2/SEPA payment flows function in Europe if there is a functional eID system. I think I've used such a system for nearly a decade now.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#326

Post by n4r9 »

oncallthrow wrote: post #84
n4r9 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much you're loading into "simply practicing free speech".

In many cases the “free speech” genuinely is racial hatred bordering on incitement. But on the other hand there genuinely have been many people arrested (and in some cases convicted) under these laws for statements that are shockingly milquetoast.

I agree. There has been over-reach, especially between 2005 and 2016. The Robin Hood airport incident is a good example. But I'm not convinced we're sliding into authoritarianism. Or at least, if we are sliding into authoritarianism then it's more likely because of restrictions on protest (e.g. Serious Disruption Prevention Orders) rather than policing of social media.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#327

Post by spoiler »

username332211 wrote: post #252
SXX wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blocking all the banks and everything? Nope it wasn't possible. You need to build a lot of tech first to implement digital Gulag.

I really doubt that. America's Congress seems to have very little difficulty in debanking people all across Europe, and obviously, they have no access to any European identity system. Canada infamously froze the bank accounts of anyone donating to anti-government protest movements and it's one of the nations without a comprehensive identification system. KYC has already killed any financial privacy people may have ha…

I agree with what you say, but I still think people should push back on this. It shouldn't be convenient for governments to abuse their citizens.

However, a bad actor (depends on how well funded/connected they are) would still have a harder time getting information.

As for the KYC thing, right now it's mostly to ensure you're not funding terrorist/criminal enterprises (at least it was the case for one of my previous companies). The data isn't just readily available to any political party who asks for it (I guess most companies will comply under certain conditions, but the legal friction is the point I think).

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#328

Post by iamnothere »

Avamander wrote: post #323
iamnothere wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet authoritarian countries without such central ID have historically had to use other less targeted methods of oppression, which creates pushback and dissent within the population, leading to either the downfall of the government or intensive reforms. The threat of a “clean” system of oppression is that it will only catch actual dissidents, without sweeping in innocents. This could freeze out any chance of effec…

> One can look around the US today to see why this lack of ID may be a good thing. You have an identity though. You use other things as an ID in the end. Often shoehorned into fulfilling that task and mostly very cumbersome. That's why it can be stolen, that's why "identity theft" is a multi-billion dollar thing. Thats why you keep your SSNs and I guess also CC#s rather tightly guarded. > Protestors who take steps to…

> You have an identity though. You use other things as an ID in the end. Often shoehorned into fulfilling that task and mostly very cumbersome.

My exact point, glad we agree. Very cumbersome indeed, and not centralized enough to use for turnkey totalitarianism. (Slow, plodding, inefficient totalitarianism, sure. But see my above post for why that isn’t as much of an existential threat.)

> There's nothing about an electronic ID that would make this different from now. It makes no practical difference for oppression. If you don't have an SSN then other things about you are unique enough for identifying you. I'd say that's why it's even vaguely tolerated anyways.

False. Electronic ID provides the means to tie together multiple systems that must currently be matched manually, with frequent false positives/negatives. It creates the means to quickly build a system that could “switch off” a person’s ability to function in society, and improves the ability of security services to pool data about individuals from disparate sources with a high level of confidence.

Nothing prevents oppression of individuals today, true. It’s a question of scale and accuracy. What we need to defend against is a system where oppression can be quickly, efficiently, and accurately targeted towards large groups. That’s the essence of turnkey totalitarianism. It can’t be built without a centralized ID system that’s applied consistently across other key systems. Current systems do not do this.

Myths about the US system:

* Every citizen has an SSN

* Every citizen uses the same name when dealing with different agencies and private businesses

* A person’s SSN always remains the same

* Citizens don’t register different addresses when dealing with different agencies and private businesses

* Government agencies use SSN as a primary key

* Agencies and businesses have a centralized, highly accurate way to determine who is deceased

* All citizens have a REAL ID license/ID

* All citizens have a license/ID

I hope this gives you a sense of how the US approaches ID. It’s extremely messy. Yes this enables things like identity fraud, guarding against this is part of the cost of our safeguards against totalitarianism. A price I’m willing to pay, given the behavior of our political establishment and the recent attitude of my fellow citizens.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#329

Post by Etheryte »

Avamander wrote: post #321
Etheryte wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a vulnerability is very different to getting hacked though. To date, there hasn't been a single breach of Estonia's ID system itself as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong? And that's saying something given the adversary is Russia. Reading through your link, the leaked pictures incident was a separate external service that's not tied to the ID system itself.

You're basically correct. But it's also a weird thing to refute in the first place? How do you hack a "passport" or your "social security card"? Artisanal elliptic curves from Russia and extremely deep corruption in most branches of the government? Most human-related problems around bootstrapping one's identity still remain the same and have to be solved. Electronic identity or not. (Also see the XKCD about the "wren…

Estonia's digital ID system is used for everything you could do with an ID and a signature in person. You can vote in elections, log in to your bank and send money, sign binding agreements, and so on. Hacking the system would mean you could, as a simple example, win elections, empty out retirement funds, and many other grim outcomes. This isn't about any one person, if you hacked the system, you could do that to the country as a whole, every single person.

Re: UK Petition: Do not introduce Digital ID cards

#330

Post by xp84 »

agedclock wrote: post #305
stephen_g wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, crazy seeing the "15 minute city" conspiracy theory on HN! For those who haven't seen it, the idea of 15 minute cities is that a lot of people think it would be great to structure development of cities with the ideal of a person being able to access most of the services they want to (workplaces, schools, supermarkets, doctors) within 15 minutes (whether walking, cycling, using public transit etc.) of where they…

If you are going to mock conspiracy theorists can you at least articulate the conspiracy theory correctly. People are worried that it would be made difficult for you to travel outside 15 minute city via a combination of mandated digital payment system for all transactions that are tied to you identity and removal of personal vehicles (e.g. cars). e.g. Person A is allowed by authorities to buy a train ticket, while Pe…

I have also had a problem before with a transaction being inaccurately flagged as fraudulent. This could either be because an anti-fraud algorithm isn’t perfect 100% of the time, or it could be the result of a vast government conspiracy to limit my travel.

I have my doubts that China, which has many of the densest cities in the world, would get much mileage (pun intended) out of restricting travel to try to quell protests. They have tons of cities that each have millions of residents. If the CPC manages to piss off a significant fraction of the populace to the point where they’re interested in marching down the street demanding regime change, there will be enough of them in those cities that no amount of travel restrictions is going to matter.

Arguably much more important would be that I don’t think most people in China own any significant weapons, and we’ve seen decades ago how shy that government isn’t about just running people over with tanks until protests dissipate.

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