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US cities pay too much for buses

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Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#321

Post by whimsicalism »

Zagreus2142 wrote: post #293
whimsicalism wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

e: after looking at the numbers again, i was wrong.

The market clearing wage only applies in economic textbooks, in a perfectly competitive market with balanced supply and demand. The US public transportation sector has major supply/demand imbalances and is a regulated market. Also the median weekly wage in the US is currently $1196 a week ( https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf ) Seattle is currently paying bus drivers $31.39 an hour, 40x = $1256 ( https://…

i think main thrust, you are right that the numbers are less extreme than i had recalled. SF (which i imagine is the top end) is $31-$47 range or so. i see lower ($25) for greyhound than you do, but frankly that seems unreasonably low so i think “salary.com” is not giving me solid numbers there.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#322

Post by jshprentz »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #67
bluGill wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honor system with regular fare inspection is a good best practice. However it only works when the fines for not having a fare are high enough that everyone knows it isn't worth the risk. If you are checked once a month the fine should be the costs of 3 months pass, though you can work the math in many different ways, just make sure paying for a ticket (preferably a monthly pass!) is cheapest and everyone believe that…

The problem with fining the homeless is that they don't pay , followed by being onboard the next day . This can't be solved without being a little mean. In 2023, Democratic lawmakers changed it from being a misdemeanor to being an administrative citation, with... get this... $35 for first offense, scaling up to $100 + 120 day ban by 4th offense. More merciful than going through a court system inconsistently, at least…

Perhaps we should implement public therapy buses, suggested by Steven Johnson in his 1991 book of the same name.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#323

Post by marbro »

RobKohr wrote: post #202

"Federal funding typically covers 80% of bus purchases, with agencies responsible for the remainder." Well, there is your answer. The one making the purchase isn't the one primarily paying for the purchase. This makes them less sensitive to pricing. Kinda like how expensive healthcare is since it is paid for by insurance. Or how you don't care how much you put on your plate or what you choose to eat at an all you can…

We need to shut down the government until buses and other wasteful borrowing and spending is eliminated. Local governments should pay for 100% of their buses rather than 20%.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#325

Post by avar »

RobKohr wrote: post #202

"Federal funding typically covers 80% of bus purchases, with agencies responsible for the remainder." Well, there is your answer. The one making the purchase isn't the one primarily paying for the purchase. This makes them less sensitive to pricing. Kinda like how expensive healthcare is since it is paid for by insurance. Or how you don't care how much you put on your plate or what you choose to eat at an all you can…

    > The second you detach the consumer from the
    > price of something, even through an
    > intermediary such as health insurance, that
    > is when they stop caring about how much
    > something costs, and so the price jumps.
In reality, this claim doesn't survive a cursory glance at the OECD's numbers for health expenditure per capita[1].

You'll find that (even ignoring the outlier that is the US health care system) that in some countries where consumers bear at least some of the cost directly via mandatory insurance and deductibles, the spending per capita (and which survives a comparison with overall life expectancy etc.) is higher than in some countries where the consumer is even further detached from spending, via single-payer universal healthcare systems.

Or, the other way around, it's almost like it's a very complex issue that resists reducing the problem to an Econ 101 parable.

1. https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/2023/11/health-at-a-gla...

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#326

Post by jodrellblank »

cyberax wrote: post #155
kjkjadksj wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bus driver also does things like trigger ramp for handicapped people, strap in wheelchairs securely, answer questions about the route, and security surveillance.

You can have a fleet of specialized self-driving taxis for people with disabilities. They can have articulated ramps or other special accommodations.

You could have trams and trains with level boarding which helps people who don't have disabilities too, costs less, takes less space in the city, makes less noise, needs less maintenance, and moves more people.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#327

Post by trollbridge »

avar wrote: post #325
RobKohr wrote: post #202

"Federal funding typically covers 80% of bus purchases, with agencies responsible for the remainder." Well, there is your answer. The one making the purchase isn't the one primarily paying for the purchase. This makes them less sensitive to pricing. Kinda like how expensive healthcare is since it is paid for by insurance. Or how you don't care how much you put on your plate or what you choose to eat at an all you can…

> The second you detach the consumer from the > price of something, even through an > intermediary such as health insurance, that > is when they stop caring about how much > something costs, and so the price jumps. In reality, this claim doesn't survive a cursory glance at the OECD's numbers for health expenditure per capita[1]. You'll find that (even ignoring the outlier that is the US health care system) that in so…

If consumers actually directly paid the whole cost for health services (as opposed to a fixed price, like a $20 copay, etc.), the prices charged would become far more regular.

An easy way to examine this is to compare the price of over-the-counter versus pharmaceuticals. If a third party weren't paying for them, the price would have to either come down to something affordable to the average person, or else the market for it would shrink to only the wealthy.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#328

Post by trollbridge »

Y_Y wrote: post #254
RobKohr wrote: post #202

"Federal funding typically covers 80% of bus purchases, with agencies responsible for the remainder." Well, there is your answer. The one making the purchase isn't the one primarily paying for the purchase. This makes them less sensitive to pricing. Kinda like how expensive healthcare is since it is paid for by insurance. Or how you don't care how much you put on your plate or what you choose to eat at an all you can…

And congratulations to any of today's lucky ten thousand who are just learning of the Principal-Agent Problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble...

And watch out for troublesome agents who often propose themselves as the answer to the principal-agent problem they created in the first place.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#329

Post by nenenejej »

burkaman wrote: post #292
esafak wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm hearing you say we should have self-driving buses... which is feasible since their route is fixed.

It is absolutely not feasible (yet), most of the job of the bus driver is knowing when to break the "rules", because someone is parked in the bus stop, or traffic is backed up so it make sense to stop a bit before the stop to let people off, or when to stop for longer than usual because someone needs to use the bike rack on the front, or when to use the bus kneeling feature because someone with mobility issues needs…

You could help set up the self driving bus for success. Make bus stops a clearway for other vehicles. In other words, if you stop there you get fined and possibly towed. Bus dashcam can help here.

The bike rack is an excellent feature where US beats my country. Well done. I think you'd need a button to ask for more time. And a Tokyo-like culture of respect for this all to work.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#330

Post by Zagreus2142 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #321
Zagreus2142 wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market clearing wage only applies in economic textbooks, in a perfectly competitive market with balanced supply and demand. The US public transportation sector has major supply/demand imbalances and is a regulated market. Also the median weekly wage in the US is currently $1196 a week ( https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf ) Seattle is currently paying bus drivers $31.39 an hour, 40x = $1256 ( https://…

i think main thrust, you are right that the numbers are less extreme than i had recalled. SF (which i imagine is the top end) is $31-$47 range or so. i see lower ($25) for greyhound than you do, but frankly that seems unreasonably low so i think “salary.com” is not giving me solid numbers there.

It's not starting $31-$47 it's $31 starting and as you build seniority and tenure you can get up to $47. https://careers.sf.gov/classifications/?classCode=9163&setId...

Indeed shows an active listing in SF for Greyhound for the same amount as Seattle. Greyhound appears to have a single national salary scrolling through different cities. https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=ad2e68b167688669

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