ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps • Hacker News Board

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#321

Post by bigyabai » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:40 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #306

sph wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Start a revolution? You have no weapons. LOL. People nowadays don't start revolutions not because of weapons or lack thereof. It's because they're thoroughly entertained and fed; even the entire political circus is a sort of morbid reality show: people tune in to the news to shake their head in disgust at today's latest antics, and will do so tomorrow, because it's all panem et circenses for grown-ups. The Internet…

> and reading anarchist philosophy That's literally how we got here. People got a taste of unmitigated unprecedented freedom online for the last three decades, and found it so gross that they allowed things to swing the other way. Even one decade ago, the threat of SOPA/PIPA rallied the internet successfully. Just over a decade later, we're at the point of allowing age verification, for morality's sake, without hardl…

How we literally "got here" was Section 230. You can easily stifle free speech by holding Facebook and X accountable for every single post ever made on their platforms. But that would capsize the American investment economy, so we have to protect them just a little bit. It creates a perverse, bipartisan incentive to export the most reprehensible opinions that still qualify as legal.

European citizens (and soon, American ones too) are discovering that they never held the cards. When you ask your OEMs, cloud providers and DNS resolver who's side they're really on, it's not yours. You, the customer, hold no guillotine over their head.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#322

Post by palata » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:42 PM UTC

meta-level wrote: post #129

1gn15 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably friction. Will you be able to convince your friends to do that?

No, probably not - but those bad guys with all their child porn and terrorist plans won't mind the friction (those will either encrypt or become EU politicians).

You would be surprised.

I mean, look at how many technically savvy people use Telegram and think it is "safe".

Ever heard of top government officials mistakenly inviting a journalist in a group sharing top secret information?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#323

Post by demosito666 » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:42 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #306

sph wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Start a revolution? You have no weapons. LOL. People nowadays don't start revolutions not because of weapons or lack thereof. It's because they're thoroughly entertained and fed; even the entire political circus is a sort of morbid reality show: people tune in to the news to shake their head in disgust at today's latest antics, and will do so tomorrow, because it's all panem et circenses for grown-ups. The Internet…

> and reading anarchist philosophy That's literally how we got here. People got a taste of unmitigated unprecedented freedom online for the last three decades, and found it so gross that they allowed things to swing the other way. Even one decade ago, the threat of SOPA/PIPA rallied the internet successfully. Just over a decade later, we're at the point of allowing age verification, for morality's sake, without hardl…

What exactly did those people taste that it got them upset so much and who exactly those "people" are? Last time I checked these laws are pushed through as covertly and sneaky as possible and no "people" asked for them. I can't recall any demonstrations with protesters asking to violate their privacy to keep them safe for those evil internet trolls that want to have a sexual intercourse with their relatives.

You're trying to frame the classic authoritarian power grab and desire to fully control the plebs as push from the society. This doesn't sound convincing.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#324

Post by Saline9515 » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:42 PM UTC

palata wrote: post #307

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So ChatControl means that e.g. Signal would be obligated to automatically scan pictures and messages sent for CSAM. This is beyond encryption. And if they were to actually do that, it would mean it's non sensical for people spreading this material to use it as they would immediately be caught, so they would just use other tools. But people are talking about both - the ridiculousness of the premise that this would hel…

So what? If predators cannot talk to children over SnapChat, that's a win, wouldn't you say? The only valid argument I see against ChatControl is that fundamentally, you cannot know what it is reporting. It's not like if there would be an open source list of illegal material together with the hashes, right? If you cannot audit what is being reporting (with whatever means necessary to make sure it is doing what it sho…

I think that a world where underage children can't access tik tok and snapchat is an acceptable cost to keep our rights for privacy.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#325

Post by gjsman-1000 » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:44 PM UTC

demosito666 wrote: post #323

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and reading anarchist philosophy That's literally how we got here. People got a taste of unmitigated unprecedented freedom online for the last three decades, and found it so gross that they allowed things to swing the other way. Even one decade ago, the threat of SOPA/PIPA rallied the internet successfully. Just over a decade later, we're at the point of allowing age verification, for morality's sake, without hardl…

What exactly did those people taste that it got them upset so much and who exactly those "people" are? Last time I checked these laws are pushed through as covertly and sneaky as possible and no "people" asked for them. I can't recall any demonstrations with protesters asking to violate their privacy to keep them safe for those evil internet trolls that want to have a sexual intercourse with their relatives. You're t…

> You're trying to frame the classic authoritarian power grab

Half of US states now have age verification for pornography; three will be requiring age verification to even download apps soon. There is indeed a push from society to get the internet under control, even if the EU is not necessarily connected the same way.

This is a huge, unprecedented reversal of opinion over the last decade that has almost completely gone over HN's head. The EFF, TechDirt, HN, Reddit view of the world has been tried, found wanting, and is being rejected. The EFF which once rallied the internet against SOPA/PIPA... currently is yelling into a void. Nobody believes in a free internet anymore.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#326

Post by zkmon » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:44 PM UTC

A nation is a concept that comes into existence only because people agree to lose some of their freedom, income and privacy. To what extent is the question. 100& privacy is not possible and it simply derails a nation, due to lack visibility and lack of control.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#327

Post by palata » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:46 PM UTC

EasyMark wrote: post #83

My answer to "think of the children" is "I am thinking of the children" * of their rights to privacy * their right to live in a democracy * the value of warrant based search vs nazi SS style * I want them to enjoy at -least- as much privacy as I currently enjoy * I don't want rando creeps reading their personal messages and keeping them forever, there's a reason memory fades, it lets us grow as people

Take it like this: your phone already "reads" absolutely everything you put on that phone. Apple or Google could do anything they want with that, but you trust them. You trust that they don't send everything that goes into your phone to their servers.

ChatControl would run locally on your phone. It would compare the images that you receive/send to a list of illegal images, and if you happen to deal with one of them, it would report you.

How is that destroying your democracy?

Disclaimer: I am against ChatControl, but too many people seem to not understand what the problem with ChatControl is.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#328

Post by Saline9515 » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:46 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #285

xp84 wrote: post #179

From the article, the current flavor of "threat" this is being positioned to fight is CSAM. Does anyone believe that predators commit those heinous offenses because of the availability of encrypted channels to distribute those products of their crimes? I sure don't. The materials exist because of predators' access to children, which these surveillance measures won't solve. Best case scenario (and this is wildly optim…

Is text-only CSAM even a thing?

It is ! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII_porn

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#329

Post by demosito666 » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:46 PM UTC

palata wrote: post #307

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So ChatControl means that e.g. Signal would be obligated to automatically scan pictures and messages sent for CSAM. This is beyond encryption. And if they were to actually do that, it would mean it's non sensical for people spreading this material to use it as they would immediately be caught, so they would just use other tools. But people are talking about both - the ridiculousness of the premise that this would hel…

So what? If predators cannot talk to children over SnapChat, that's a win, wouldn't you say? The only valid argument I see against ChatControl is that fundamentally, you cannot know what it is reporting. It's not like if there would be an open source list of illegal material together with the hashes, right? If you cannot audit what is being reporting (with whatever means necessary to make sure it is doing what it sho…

> The only valid argument

Really? The only one?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#330

Post by blindriver » Thu, Sep 25, 2025, 8:47 PM UTC

palata wrote: post #298

blindriver wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I deny that. What proof is there that peddlers of child pornography are using chat to distribute CSAM? What proof is there that they won’t simply move to another undocumented form of distribution once this is implemented, leaving the criminals unmonitored but every law-abiding citizen monitored?

> What proof is there that peddlers of child pornography are using chat to distribute CSAM? Are you kidding me? How do you think predators get in contact with children? Over social media that children use, obviously. And of course many criminals use chat. Most have no clue about encryption, like the vast majority of humans.

“Distribute” not “contact”. Unless you want to scan all chat messages for potential signs of adults engaging in grooming of children too? Talk about a slippery slope, you’re basically making my point.