How can England possibly be running out of water? • Hacker News Board

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#321

Post by Earw0rm » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:09 PM UTC

AussieCoder wrote: post #171

zarzavat wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good find, I admit I had jumped on the Thames Water is Evil bandwagon, and for the record they are evil, but in this case they have been out-eviled by that other driver of British societal regression: > Campaigners had fought the plan, claiming there was no need for such a large reservoir and that it would damage the environment. > Leader of the Vale of White Horse Council Tony de Vere said: "We are delighted with th…

I have friends in the Abingdon area and the primary objection, from what they've told me, is that locals objected to a reservoir that would mainly be used to supply London. Little Englanders at their worst.

They don't object to London subsidising their "rural" lifestyle and paying their pensions though. I despise these people.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#322

Post by qcnguy » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:10 PM UTC

KoolKat23 wrote: post #314

qcnguy wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government bonds are only low risk in economic theory. In real world practice lending to left wing countries can be high risk as they like to accumulate too much debt and then default. That's why the UK government is paying 5.8% on its bonds at the moment despite being able to print its own money, which is the same average interest rate paid by Thames Water. Lending to Thames is not seen as riskier than lending to th…

It's interesting it's at the same rate, I imagine as everyone knows the government would have to bail them out. So the question remains why do it? It doesn't actually benefit the general public then. Increased risk for government and like you mentioned increased hurdles for running the utility. Of course government do that, but they're left holding the bag regardless, so the incentive is very different. These are not…

Why do what? Have private water companies? Same reason for having private food supply, private electricity providers, private communication providers, and in most countries private healthcare providers. They run the business better than the state would, which is itself a benefit to the public.

A government bailout means nationalization, which means investors lose everything. That risk doesn't suppress interest rates, it increases them. Thames Water's interest costs are around average for corporate debt, implying the market doesn't anticipate a water nationalization anytime soon.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#323

Post by hermitcrab » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:11 PM UTC

Thatcher's conservative government sold off all the UK's family silver in the 80s. Now we are held to ransom the by the big companies that own these monopolies. It was a short-sighted act with predictably awful consequences and they should never be forgiven for it.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#324

Post by jaccola » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:12 PM UTC

psd1 wrote: post #216

hnhg wrote: post #37

Short answer is that the UK gave private companies to extract as much wealth as possible with minimal re-investment in infrastructure. The nation has since seen water rationing and raw sewage being pumped into rivers and beaches, but at least some shareholders have benefited, right?

Well tbf, there is a regulator and there are price controls. They've been given license to extract wealth, but not as much as possible. I do share your bitterness. Free-market fundamentalists have flogged assets for years, and the cost to the citizens is some future government's problem.

> there is a regulator and there are price controls

> Free-market fundamentalists have flogged assets for years

Maybe the problem isn't the free market (since one does not in any way exist in this case) but government interventionism.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#325

Post by gaoshan » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:13 PM UTC

When a resource becomes restricted and is at the same time foundational to life would it not be reasonable to say that it cannot be held for profit?

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#326

Post by antonly » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:13 PM UTC

neuroelectron wrote: post #296

antonly wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really shallow and unfounded take. Sad to see this here. This particular issue is imho mostly related to a lack in investment in water infrastructure (reservoirs and pipes). I don't see how migrants factor into this equation (not to mention that the "free money" given to migrants is scarcely a drop in the bucket). Please spread your hatred elsewhere.

16% As of the 2021 Census, approximately 16% of the population in England and Wales were born outside the UK, which translates to about 10 million people. This figure represents a significant increase from previous years, indicating a growing presence of foreign-born individuals in the country. Wikipedia +1

Woah there, not all foreign born people are refugees. That's some serious misunderstanding you have there.

Also, the "foreign born" statistic is pretty moot, seeing as UK was part of the EU until shortly before 2021 with free movement of labour. Most other European countries have higher levels of "foreign born" people living there, e.g. Austria, Germany and Sweden with around 20%[^1]. If you scroll further down, you see that ~half of these people are born within the EU.

So yeah, check your biases.

[^1]: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Btw, I am "foreign born" within the UK, doing my PhD here in computer science. Most of my colleagues aren't from within the UK either. This is not because of any "policy", there simply is not enough demand from UK students to fill these places. Good luck with your country once you convinced all of us to leave. Have fun drinking your water :)

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#327

Post by anthonypasq » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:14 PM UTC

krona wrote: post #145

autoexec wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to things like utilities every penny of profit comes at the expense of the public. Either prices are raised so that a small number of people can stuff their pockets with extra cash above what it costs to deliver the service and maintain the system or they get that extra money by failing to deliver the service or they do it by failing to maintain the system itself. I think the neglect and failure to inve…

> I think the neglect and failure to invest in infrastructure is the worst Cumulative capital investment by water companies in England and Wales since privatisation: £250bn. The infrastructure they inherited was never designed for the things it's being asked to do today, and it has a life expectancy. It would literally cost trillions to upgrade the entire sewerage system. This isn't apologia, it's just reality. The r…

isnt the cost of not fixing it > trillions of dollars?

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#328

Post by freen » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:15 PM UTC

When you put foxes in charge of the henhouse, are you surprised that all the hens will be eaten?

Tories think government is the problem, thus when they govern, they break the government, which in turn results in situations like this, which the tories can use to argue that government is the problem.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#329

Post by alt227 » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:15 PM UTC

neuroelectron wrote: post #245

1. England population reaches ecological balance mediated by thousands-year old social hiarchies 2. Tax base plateaus 3. Import refugees and give them free money to increase tax base 4. Run out of natural resources 5. ? 6. Profit

If water companies had reinvested all the money that shareholders have taken as dividends over the years, then there would be more than enough drinking water for people to come to the UK for decades into the future.

We have not run out of natural resources, the issue is we have not built appropriate infrastructure to harness it for a very long time.

Re: How can England possibly be running out of water?

#330

Post by Earw0rm » Tue, Sep 09, 2025, 2:15 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #219

coryrc wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yes, that includes America, because most US refineries need OPEC oil for chemical composition reasons. I think you got that backwards, Venezuela needs US refineries because of chemical composition reasons. North America as a whole is self-sufficient. > People are starting to revisit the idea that oil and steel manufacture should at least be held domestically Oh good, lets push the inflation button even harder.…

> I can only hope steel manufacture can someday be as efficient and competitive as US boat building. Better have expensive boats than no boats , particularly when preparing to wage war with a country that can be reached either by air - which means either missiles or nuclear bombers - or by water, the only option allowing for conventional warfare. That's the thing we all have to prepare for, the inevitable confrontati…

This is efficient if you actually _need_ hundreds or thousands of units.

Which was clearly the case in WW2.

And _might_ be the case if the confrontation with China is proxy wars. Hundreds or thousands of spare units (of tanks, AA, helicopters, fighter jets) would be useful in Ukraine, for example.

But it's hard to see a use-case for hundreds of B-2s, for example. By the time those things are flying in anger, twenty or thirty will do everything you're ever going to do.