Live data from Hacker News

John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

twitter.com

321–330 of 675 posts

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#321
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do I apply to join this monastic order of OS programmers?

Just walk up to the gate of your nearest Concent next Apert and they will take you right in! Actually, I don't know how you join the Ita now that you mention it.

The Ita were kind of an ethno-cultural group as much as they were a professional caste.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#322
post #202

> They also got me reported to HR by the manager of the XROS effort for supposedly making his team members feel bad I've only seen John Carmack's public interactions, but they've all been professional and kind. It's depressing to imagine HR getting involved because someone's feelings had been hurt by an objective discussion from a person like John Carmack. I'm having flashbacks to the times in my career when coworker…

I followed his posts internally before he left. He was strict about resource waste. Hand tracking would break constantly and he brought metrics to his posts. His whole point was that Apple has hardware nailed down and it’ll be efficient software that will be the differentiator. The bloat at Meta was the result of empire building.

I saw a few of those. He really leaned in on just how much waste was in the UI rendering, with some nasty looking call times to critical components. I think it was close to when he left.

Dude just seemed frustrated with the lack of attention to things that mattered.

But...that honestly tracks with Meta's past and present.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#323

I was at Google when the Flutter team started building Fuchsia. They had amazing talent. Seriously, some of the most brilliant engineers I've worked with. They had a huge team. Hundreds of people. It was so ambitious. But it seemed like such a terrible idea from the start. Nobody was ever able to articulate who would ever use it. Technically, it was brilliant. But there was no business plan. If they wanted to build a…

It's a lot of work and hard to justify if you're looking for short term improvements. But if you're really committed to long term improvements, it absolutely makes sense. Google is actually willing to make long term investments. Publicly justifying the investment has never been a goal of the project which is why most folks probably don't understand it. Honestly I'm not sure why folks care enough to even do commentary…

> People always talk about web browser monoculture and cheer on new entrants, yet no one seems to mind the os monoculture. We will all come out ahead if there are more viable OS out there to use.

3 main OSes vs 2 main browser engine for consumer to choose from?

Anyway the main issue with the Browser engine consolidation is that whoever owns the Browser engine, can make or break what goes in there. Just think about VSCode's current status with all the AI companies wanting to use it and make it their own product, while MSFT attempting to curtail it. At some point either MSFT decide it commit to FOSS on this one, or the multiple forks will have to reimplement some functionalities.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also super rude to make claims as to what occurred and why in any situation you yourself were not privy to or involved in but I don’t see you rushing in with the same vigour to point that out.

> It’s also super rude to make claims as to what occurred and why in any situation you yourself were not privy to or involved in... Do you know that that's what's going on here?

Yes. Seems pretty clear from the post to me that they are making assumptions based on a similar event in their past, not that they were involved first hand in this event.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#325

I was at Google when the Flutter team started building Fuchsia. They had amazing talent. Seriously, some of the most brilliant engineers I've worked with. They had a huge team. Hundreds of people. It was so ambitious. But it seemed like such a terrible idea from the start. Nobody was ever able to articulate who would ever use it. Technically, it was brilliant. But there was no business plan. If they wanted to build a…

I think the hope is that you just start there. They might have migrated the meeting room devices. Why would you set out to replace *everything* at once? Do something, get some revenue/experience, then try to fan out.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#326
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which makes sense when you are one of 3 developers at ID software. There's absolutely no room for waste. This is Meta. Let the kids build their operating system ffs. Is he now more concerned with protecting shareholder value? Who cares.

There were almost no kids on the XROS team. The bulk of the team were E6s with graying hairs, multiple kids, and very impressive history of work on other well-known operating systems -- and most of them wrote a lot of code. This was the senior-est team I ever was a member of. Also, the most enjoyable interview process I've ever been through, no bullshit whatsoever and a rare case that I actually had to implement the…

I chatted with someone on the language side of the project (I believe the same project) and it was fascinating how ambitious the concept was. I do wish it was finished or open sourced though

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#327

I was at Google when the Flutter team started building Fuchsia. They had amazing talent. Seriously, some of the most brilliant engineers I've worked with. They had a huge team. Hundreds of people. It was so ambitious. But it seemed like such a terrible idea from the start. Nobody was ever able to articulate who would ever use it. Technically, it was brilliant. But there was no business plan. If they wanted to build a…

Not only did they target Home Hub, they basically forced a rewrite on it (us, I worked on the team). After we already launched. And made our existing workable software stack into legacy. And then they were late. Then late again. And late again. With no consequences. 100% agree with your points. To me watching I was like -- yeah, hell, yeah, working on an OS from scratch sounds awesome, those guys have an awesome job.…

Other teams decommitting is just how it goes.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#328
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were almost no kids on the XROS team. The bulk of the team were E6s with graying hairs, multiple kids, and very impressive history of work on other well-known operating systems -- and most of them wrote a lot of code. This was the senior-est team I ever was a member of. Also, the most enjoyable interview process I've ever been through, no bullshit whatsoever and a rare case that I actually had to implement the…

That’s what I’m saying. It sounds like a dream job. Like you said it’s a journey not a destination, but it’s also a journey on one of the wealthiest companies in the worlds dime, so it’s kinda lame when someone calls it out for being suboptimal. That’s why I said who cares. It’s not going to hurt meta in the long run.

It did hurt Meta. No one has infinite resources even if it seems that way to us.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#329

Jonathan Blow is the world’s most successful hobbyist programmer. His whole thing is doing projects from scratch. Every game he made could be done in Unity with far less effort. Most opinions of this man exists in a vacuum space isolated from the real world software industry. Building an OS from scratch is one of those examples. It’s never seems like there’s a significant reason behind them other than………”I made dat :…

It is genuinely ridiculous to say that the witness could “have been made in Unity with far less effort”. It’s easy to forget that people on this and ever forum love to just say stuff for the sake of having said something until you encounter a topic with which you are extremely familiar.

Re: John Carmack's arguments against building a custom XR OS at Meta

#330

> They also got me reported to HR by the manager of the XROS effort for supposedly making his team members feel bad I've only seen John Carmack's public interactions, but they've all been professional and kind. It's depressing to imagine HR getting involved because someone's feelings had been hurt by an objective discussion from a person like John Carmack. I'm having flashbacks to the times in my career when coworker…

meta was a weird place for a while. because of psc (the performance rating stuff) being so important… a public post could totally demoralize a team because if a legend like carmack thinks that your project is a waste of resources, how is that going to look on your performance review? impact is facebook for “how useful is this to the company” and its an explicit axis of judgement.

Facebook has literally done very little in terms of new breakthrough products in a decade at least, and Bytedance has apparently just beat them on revenue.
Post reply on HN