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Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

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Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#321
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats, you just described mental healthcare. And a bunchhhhh of other things.

You have state examination for other professions? We only have them for medical professions, laywers, criminal-related professions and teachers. I think in most cases were the patient thinks he is smarter than the doctor, the latter already knows the argument, but also why it is wrong/more complicated. When something is understoodable by laymen, the doctor will be fine to understand it and better suited to judge it.

You misunderstand.

"How would they selecting medication, when they wouldn't know the mechanism of action?"

Mechanism of action is not known in 10-20% of current medications and treatments, across the board.

We /already/ prescribe things without knowing how they work.

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#322
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the people in power, not the people. Most certainly the people who were enslaved didn't believe it was moral or ok. Similarly for women's rights, LGBTQ+, etc etc. So again, laws and morality are different things and should be treated as such.

Assuming a government that reflects the people like democracy, which is I assume the context of this discussion. And to be clear they are different, but they are very closely related. And the relationship is that law follows and encodes the people's morality. Usually by majority depending on the form of government. If many people feel like the laws do not represent their morality, that's generally a problem, and will…

Democracy is not where a government reflects the views of the people. Otherwise the democracies of the world would not have taxes or ubiquitous surveillance or perpetual war. Nobody anywhere wants these things.

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#323
post #322
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming a government that reflects the people like democracy, which is I assume the context of this discussion. And to be clear they are different, but they are very closely related. And the relationship is that law follows and encodes the people's morality. Usually by majority depending on the form of government. If many people feel like the laws do not represent their morality, that's generally a problem, and will…

Democracy is not where a government reflects the views of the people. Otherwise the democracies of the world would not have taxes or ubiquitous surveillance or perpetual war. Nobody anywhere wants these things.

I would disagree with that; I want taxes because I get something out of taxes. Taxes are me paying the government for certain services they provide me, like I'm hiring a contractor.

As for surveillance/war, although they have been supported by large chunks of the population in the past, I would say democracy aims to reflect the views of the majority. But it's also not magic, it's a fixed system -- a complicated system, but just a system. You vote for the person/party that best reflects your views. It seems quite a bit more likely to be a reflection of the people than other forms of government where the people tend to have less of a say, but not necessarily of course.

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain what you mean by that? Who are the proponents of “big reality”? How do they fight against its disruption?

Psychedelics challenge the post-Enlightenment project of "rational" adulthood. Western civilization has a deep myth: the myth of necessary order - a yoking of rationality, order, and progress together into what forms the basis for modernity. Psychedelics cannot have intrinsic value outside of rationality, so, they must either be accepted on the basis of rationality and order or face rejection. We express this using t…

There are a lot of interesting thoughts here -- many of which I tend to agree with. But I don't see how this answers my questions, unfortunately -- unless you mean to say that the answers are something like 1) "almost everyone" and 2) "virtually everything they do."

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#326
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have state examination for other professions? We only have them for medical professions, laywers, criminal-related professions and teachers. I think in most cases were the patient thinks he is smarter than the doctor, the latter already knows the argument, but also why it is wrong/more complicated. When something is understoodable by laymen, the doctor will be fine to understand it and better suited to judge it.

You misunderstand. "How would they selecting medication, when they wouldn't know the mechanism of action?" Mechanism of action is not known in 10-20% of current medications and treatments, across the board. We /already/ prescribe things without knowing how they work.

I am not a doctor myself, but from what I hear from relatives, who are, for most known diseases, there is a predefined treatment plan. While the doctor can choose something else, he better knows what he is doing, otherwise it will be legally dangerous. Even if there is a well-known better treatment he isn't allowed to do it, because it isn't approved by the council of insurance, and this will also result in legal trouble. If the doctor doesn't work in a hospital that won't only result in legal trouble, but a revoked profession, i.e. the doctor is out of business and bankrupt for life, because the insurance decides where a doctor has a praxis.

If the case arises that the disease it is not known and it is not known by another doctor in a higher hospital, then you do need to select a medication yourself. And then you do need to know both the physiological issue and the mechanism of action. Not just to ensure that the medication is effective, but because there are thousands if not millions of medications and you do need to select. Simply choosing something will almost certainly result in serious harm/death. Also, because it is an unusual disease, the mechanism of action won't be the primary/intended one of the medication. I mean, not that the doctor wouldn't never be wrong. But he will always /think/ he knows how they work, because if he doesn't he would rather do nothing (meaning only treating pain / trying to prevent it becoming worse) than something, for legal reasons.

That's why the studies are famously only about learning by rote, because of the huge knowledge that must be known by heart. Also it is more important to know the physiology, because there will be constantly new medications and you need to understand their mechanism. This is also why in this profession you are required to go to continuing education or otherwise loose your profession.

I think for most mistreatments it's not because the doctor doesn't understand the medication, but because of wrong diagnosis, focusing on the wrong symptom, misunderstanding or simply human error. Every conclusion any man takes, can also be taken by every doctor, but in addition he also has the vast knowledge and training of decades and the century long history of the medical community. That's why I disagree with you and agree to the original claim:

> thinking that our own judgement is better than a doctor judgement, supported by a vast community and shared knowledge, is epistemically interesting.

Re: Bill Atkinson's psychedelic user interface

#327
post #5

thinking that our own judgement is better than a doctor judgement, supported by a vast community and shared knowledge, is epistemically interesting. Beware that I'm not saying that doctors, or the scientific community, can't be wrong, everyone can be wrong, even ourselves. Personally, I'd rather have a proper doctor prescribe me said medicine than take it myself.

I can't edit anymore so I'll comment. My point is that it's epistemically interesting. What makes it so is that it's hard (at least to me) to decide who's right or wrong. To do so would need an expert-level understanding of the matter at hand. That is not possible: I choose my own biased judgement, someone else potentially biased judgement, or I trust experts and a broader group of people that seems to have things sorted? Trusting others, I make the same choice (epistemically, let me stress again) as choosing my own biased judgement, after all it is my biased judgement that makes me choose that way. At some point, you have faith in something: yourself, the media, some partial knowledge of published papers (am I interpreting their relevance correctly?). My guess (but it is mine alone, going back into the loop) is that a broader group of people someone mitigates failures in having faith into the wrong stuff. This again is not true in general. All this to say, it's interesting to note how on some topics the general public seems to split into two groups, one advocating for the complete trust in the expert, the other for more or less complete self made opinions. Usually health, education, ... ? It seems to me that there isn't such a split for other topics.
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