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IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

haaretz.com

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Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#321

Post by glitchc »

perlgeek wrote: post #79
ahartmetz wrote: post #26

Why though, what does it achieve? Do they want to make sure that there will be terrorists / freedom fighters in the future so that they have a reason not to negotiate? Because they expect to "win" if violence continues?

From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options: 1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reasons, and Israel (by which I mean the current government) doesn't want that 2) Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation, and let them participate in the regular political processes. The cur…

> Since 1) and 2) are (again, from the perspective of Isreal's government) undesirable, and 3) has stopped working, 4) seems to be their current strategy.

The Israeli govt and people would be very supportive of (2). After all, there are more Arabs living in Israel than in Palestine. The Palestineans, on the other hand, overwhelmingly reject this option.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#322

Post by brenschluss »

avip wrote: post #312
LightBug1 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Is there a way for IDF to fight Hamas without "inflict war crimes, or terrorism on civilians" though? How would that work in practical terms?

If fighting X requires you to inflict war crimes, perhaps you should question the premise of why you are fighting in the first place.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#323

Post by ryuhhnn »

kpozin wrote: post #306

[flagged]

“Fire at unarmed crowds” and “fire towards crowds” is the same thing, what sort of semantic ping pong is this? Also propaganda =/= bad. All media is propaganda, in some languages the word “propaganda” has the same semantic meaning as the English word “advertisement”. This comment is war crime apologia.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#325

Post by xg15 »

basisword wrote: post #313
xg15 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm German and I really see a lot of the blame for this on our states as well - the US and the EU states (especially Germany, sadly). As horrible as the Israeli mindset is, their subjective viewpoint is at least somewhat relatable: An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, just learns that the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead - and will with very high likelihood exper…

>> An ordinary Israeli citizen is born in that land, knows nothing else, just learns that the entirety of the surrounding populations want them dead. You have to look at the other side too. Palestinian's are born knowing that Israeli's have taken lots of their land through violent force. And they want to take more of it. And while the Israeli's live in a well developed wealthy nation they are condemned to poverty. Co…

No question about that.

I found it a remarkable detail that from the shore of Gaza, you see the port of and industrial zone of Ashdod, only a few kilometers away. It seems almost like a permanent reminder that the entire area is in fact well-developed - the wasteland only exists where they live.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#328

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

mpweiher wrote: post #320
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Is there a reason to disbelieve the soldiers’ testimony?

There is plenty of reason to disbelieve the testimony was reported accurately. Haaretz’s English edition claims that IDF soldiers were ordered to fire at unarmed Palestinians waiting for food in Gaza, but the original Hebrew version? It states they were told to fire towards crowds to keep them away from the aid sites. This represents a significant difference in intent, legality, and moral implications https://mrandre…

> fire at unarmed Palestinians waiting for food in Gaza

> fire towards crowds to keep them away from the aid sites

I am struggling to understand the distinction.

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#329

Post by avip »

Newtonip wrote: post #310
alluro2 wrote: post #177

I visited Israel for a sports seminar some ~10 years ago and met many nice people. I felt sympathetic to their reality of living in an ever-hostile environment from all sides, and struggle to keep their place in the world safe. I admired their resilience and strength. When this Gaza conflict started, I saw how the Israeli protested against their government and demanded peace, so I thought there is a semblance of an e…

It's a state founded on ethnic cleansing. People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves. In late 1947, their militias begun a campaign of massacring and expelling Palestinians from mostly defenseless villages. These refuges pouring into neighboring Arab countries is what prompted the 1948 war. When the war ended, they murdered any civilians trying to return to their homes…

Many states were "founded on ethnic cleansing". They are widely considered to posses a right of existence, and even expected to defend their citizens.

(excuse me for ignoring the history trolling)

Re: IDF officers ordered to fire at unarmed crowds near Gaza food distribution sites

#330

Post by ndiddy »

msgodel wrote: post #94
perlgeek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Israel's perspective, Palestinians are a problem. Long term, they have a few options: 1) Give them their own state. This is difficult for quite many reasons, and Israel (by which I mean the current government) doesn't want that 2) Give them full citizenship rights equal to Israel's citizens, make sure they have a proper minority representation, and let them participate in the regular political processes. The cur…

You'd think given Israel's history they'd do everything they could to not make 4) acceptable.

Many of the Zionists viewed the Holocaust as teaching that the Jewish people need a state of their own, no matter what it takes or how many people they have to kill. They viewed the European Jews who had died in the Holocaust as weak, passive cowards who had "allowed" the Holocaust to happen, and went like sheep to their slaughter (ignoring the Warsaw Uprising, and all of the underground Jewish resistance movements). I think Israel's current actions reflect this viewpoint.
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