Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America • Hacker News Board

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#321

Post by sanderjd » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 2:36 AM UTC

wat10000 wrote: post #317

sanderjd wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It might be fun to imagine, but when talking about the real world it makes no sense. I choose to assume that the people who accept this premise want to make sense, so I assume they mean a real, human dictator who will eventually die. I think this is where you're wrong. I think it only makes sense as a nonsensical thought experiment. A single benevolent dictator for five years is also implausible to the point of sil…

I’m very utilitarian. To me, representation is a means to an end. The most important aspect of it is giving people an outlet for grievances that doesn’t involve violence. Secondarily, it incentivizes the people who run things to do things that regular people want. But if a benevolent dictator can keep people sufficiently satisfied not to turn to violence, and does a better job of running things than elected represent…

Right, I just disagree with this utilitarian frame. I understand that lots of people buy this, but I think it's poorly reasoned. But it's your prerogative to see it this way! I just don't.

But my point here has been that to the small extent this is an interesting thought experiment, it's because it draws out this disagreement.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#322

Post by agumonkey » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 2:45 AM UTC

imiric wrote: post #269

agumonkey wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be studied how large (world scale) populations can flip with just the right amount of social struggle, populists, wealthy owners leveraging said populists, and new found gurus serving as grandiose ideal sources for the last two groups.

The effectiveness of propaganda has been known for a long time. The advertising industry is built on the foundations laid by Edward Bernays a century ago, who applied the same psychological manipulation tactics of propaganda to advertising, which turned it into the trillion dollar meta-industry we know today. The same technology built for advertising is used for any other kind of psyop. Considering most people in ind…

Yeah I've seen the interview. Still there's a little lesson here. 20th century made people thinking they were educated and advanced. But in fact it doesn't matter much...

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#323

Post by krisboyz781 » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 3:14 AM UTC

NickC25 wrote: post #300

abathologist wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, he is also committed to race science, the belief that diversity is fundamentally bad, and that states "own" their citizens, and can do anything they want to them. None of that is just the basic idea of a benevolent dictator. Yarvin's views are repugnant and evil as well as reductive, childish, and unoriginal.

> he is also committed to race science, the belief that diversity is fundamentally bad Ironically, he's jewish. He's a modern day tech-bro Clayton Bigsby.

[dead]

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#324

Post by maxglute » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 3:23 AM UTC

soulofmischief wrote: post #272

maxglute wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO it's largely ignorant talking heads taking "The Empire, Long Divided, Must Unite" from popculture / memes and just ran with it, because China bad / should bulkanize, not historic credence. If there was actual historic awareness, this argument would also note significant united cycles of Chinese periods last 250-500 years, after shorter balkanization cycle (50-150 years, eastern zhou shitshow aside). Then the argu…

This is a biased and narrow take. The reality is that both the US and Chinese empires are threading a needle right now with respect to economics and civil unrest. The Chinese government is bad, and it's already split into China and Taiwan, further erosion of the dynasty is absolutely plausible. There is zero value in pretending everything is hunky dory up until the moment that it all collapses.

There's nothing biased/narrow to note that if one evaluates Chinese history, CCP/modern PRC is experiencing unprecedented domestic serenity and is likely amidst the rising/reunifying era post chaotic Qing interregnum/collapse. Given timeline, and procedurally, ROC/TW isn't indicator of start of balkanization but last piece to reunify now that frontiers like Tibet/XJ has been thoroughly incorporated. Between eminent rise and eminent collapse, it's pretty obvious to me which way PRC comprehensive power is trending towards.

There's zero value in pretending just because things are burning in US means things are also similarly burning in degree/scale in PRC. That's cope/projection. Of course eventually "China" can break up again, but the way things has/are trending, there's still a lot of rising to do. Like it would be one thing if PRC was stagnant or relatively declining throughout last 30 years of China collapse narrative (i.e. USSR vs US), and one can argue it's a matter of slowly then suddenly. But most lines are going up, in the opposite direction of collapse, sometimes at absurd slopes, despite best effort of hegemonic US trying to contain.

Not everything is hunky dory, but let's not pretend it's threading a needle with collapse. That narrative hasn't/doesn't reconcile with reality and history. And historically, authoritarian Chinese governments can grow very powerful for a very long time. To acknowledge your concern, the state can be strong at the expense of the people, both chinese and outside "barbarians", hegemonically strong. If CCP/PRC is just average performing dynasty, they'll likely still be around and powerful in 100+ years, i.e. all of our life times.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#325

Post by soulofmischief » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 3:37 AM UTC

esseph wrote: post #306

soulofmischief wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a China problem that they are currently projected to lose half of their massive 1.5bil population within a century, potentially putting significant strain on existing social and economic infrastructure.

It's a global population trend. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/17/worlds-po... https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/newsroom/news-release... https://www.aei.org/articles/fewer-and-faster-global-fertili...

There aren't many countries going from 1.5bil to 750mil in 75 years. That's a loss of 10 million a year, with an increasingly aged population. It's a problem at a much different scale.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#326

Post by Digory » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 3:43 AM UTC

BobbyJo wrote: post #118

eikenberry wrote: post #110

Didn't have time to make it through the entire (long winded) article, but is it wrong to boil down his thinking to the simple idea that a benevolent, competent dictator is the best form of government? I ask as this seems like a very simplistic and obvious idea. The problem isn't that this is necessarily incorrect, it is how do you find this mythical figurehead? History has shown that we have never discovered a system…

> The problem isn't that this is necessarily incorrect, it is how do you find this mythical figurehead? I think, historically, the problem has also been: what happens when they die? Then you need lightning to strike twice.

In our lifetimes, I predict some of us will choose to be governed (at least in part) by Sam Altman's benevolent, everlasting machine.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#327

Post by homefree » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 3:52 AM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #319

homefree wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://graymirror.substack.com/p/its-easy-from-here

Hmmm, ok, I read this. Are there any parts of it that you find particularly thoughtful about power or areas of democratic failure that are worth thinking about? I think we probably just fundamentally disagree here, because to me, this whole thing seems like drivel. Are there gems in there that I'm just not recognizing?

The idea that stuck out to me is even if you repeal chevron deference and argue congress should be making laws like it’s supposed to, the outcome will be vague laws which then get interpreted by the courts, pushing the real legislation from administration technocrats that might at least be subject matter experts in the best case to unelected judges that probably don’t know anything.

The symbolic idea of who holds power and who actually holds power in practice are not the same.

There’s also the bit that doge is constrained in ways that make success unlikely (which has now been proved out).

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#328

Post by Karrot_Kream » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 3:55 AM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #316

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was considered a core, visible member of the rationalist community from well before the split. For better or for worse he is considered a figurehead of the movement. With the acrimony of the split there was no way he was going to escape unscathed no matter which side he ended up on just by sheer visibility of his writing.

But it's not rationalists mad about this split who seem to have outsized vitriol for him. It seems to me that it's people who were not involved in that community to begin with.

My read has always been that the angry folks were always rationalist adjacent even if they weren't rationalists themselves. There's a lot of people in my IRL network, for example, who are 1-3 degrees of separation from Scott or Yud but have never posted about them or in the rationalist blogspace at all.

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#329

Post by LAC-Tech » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 3:57 AM UTC

NickC25 wrote: post #300

abathologist wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, he is also committed to race science, the belief that diversity is fundamentally bad, and that states "own" their citizens, and can do anything they want to them. None of that is just the basic idea of a benevolent dictator. Yarvin's views are repugnant and evil as well as reductive, childish, and unoriginal.

> he is also committed to race science, the belief that diversity is fundamentally bad Ironically, he's jewish. He's a modern day tech-bro Clayton Bigsby.

How is this ironic?

Re: Curtis Yarvin's Plot Against America

#330

Post by nine_k » Thu, Jun 05, 2025, 3:59 AM UTC

eikenberry wrote: post #110

Didn't have time to make it through the entire (long winded) article, but is it wrong to boil down his thinking to the simple idea that a benevolent, competent dictator is the best form of government? I ask as this seems like a very simplistic and obvious idea. The problem isn't that this is necessarily incorrect, it is how do you find this mythical figurehead? History has shown that we have never discovered a system…

Yarvin's analysis of a situation is often interesting and poignant, and occasionally quite fun to read, due to his erudition and irony.

His positive program though is underwhelming at best, and hostile at worst, literally against several key points of the US oath of allegiance, for instance. His idea of a benevolent head of a "sovcorp" ("sovereign corporation") is not even some virtuous king Elessar; someone like president Putin, capable, determined, and with very long horizon of planning, but sufficiently cynical, would fit the bill. For last 3 yeas we have a painful demonstration of how well that works.

The fact that Yarvin can publish and promote his views in a society that's formally built on ideas opposite to his speaks good about our society, its freedom of thought and speech. It also adds to its durability. Every authoritarian ruler knows how dangerous are subversive ideas that propagate covertly, while everyone pretends to be aligned to the official values.