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Don't force your kids to do math

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Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#321

Post by margalabargala »

hkpack wrote: post #296
margalabargala wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a false dichotomy. If not at a club/activity, why does the child have unrestricted access to screens?

Have you personally tried to keep a teen away from a screen? If you did with a success, I would really like to hear your story and what has worked for you. Looking at my kids friends / classmates, almost all of the parents just gave up, with the exception of a small group that is still trying with the discussed approach.

"Keeping teens away from screens"? And why are there screens?

Sugar is addictive. One would not necessarily expect a teen to healthily control their sugar intake; accordingly, we don't put bowls of candy around the house, and if we did we certainly wouldn't be shocked when they emptied themselves, and then thrown up our hands and said "can't keep kids from candy, what can you do?".

Our kids aren't teens yet, but the plan is for screen time to be whitelisted, that is, there are certain times and circumstances where screens are okay and the rest of the time they are not.

EDIT: To elaborate on parenting philosophy a bit, one can provide structure (good) without being authoritarian (bad). Rather than bouncing between "you have all the options available, including screens, hope you make a good choice!" and "you are doing this specific activity now", one can provide unstructured time with lots of options available- reading, board game, doing something outdoors, creating a craft, etc- while having none of those options be screens.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#322

Post by vacuity »

05 wrote: post #287
eastbound wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any proof of why it is best? I prefer to live among educated people, thank you. I prefer my peers to go through forced history lessons, forced math lessons so they don’t tank my government, and biology lessons so they don’t tank the health system. Yes they won’t be able to determine their gender, but that will give me grandkids, thank you very much. Same goes for piano or sports. Yes we need to pull people upwards, o…

Forced history lessons are just indoctrination and propaganda, since what you learn is dictated by the government. I wonder if there’s a single country on Earth that teaches e.g. the history of Israel-Palestine conflict in a way that even tries to approach objectivity.

All history lessons are indoctrination at the very least. There's not some "objective history book" where people can just learn "objective history" without zero doubts. Even for things that are taught more or less "objectively", no one alive has firsthand experience of them, unless they are recent. The end result of teaching critical thinking is that you shouldn't trust anyone completely, not yourself, and not your teachers. It's just that adding the layer of government propaganda makes things worse.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#324

Post by dr_kiszonka »

sublinear wrote: post #80
Buttons840 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go from "[ ] + 2 = 5" to writing it "box + 2 = 5--what is box?". Then "b + 2 = 5--what is b?" then "x + 2 = 5--what is x?".

I agree. I think the actual problem is that the student is trying to comprehend what it means for anything to have mathematical value other than explicit numbers. Numbers and letters are taught together, but not as symbols. Letters are taught with sounds and numbers are taught with counting. The notion of a symbol isn't really emphasized much. I would explain it more like after [ ] + 2 = 5 what happens if you need mo…

I agree with you.

To me, a lot of pre-college math education could be summarized as "In this class I will show you a bunch of abstract problems, a bunch of ways to solve them, and I will test if you have learned them." Learning in these classes is often limited to memorizing a sequence of steps.

That's why I would frequently ask "You can do that?" myself when talking to those whom I considered mathematically gifted (math olympiad winners and such). I think they realized that as a problem-solving tool math could be used creatively. I saw it as a largely useless hammer that to work had to be held in a very specific way.

I remember connecting sets in, I think, Pascal to what I had learned in school and realizing that all that math was perhaps not as useless as I had thought : - )

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#325

Post by globular-toast »

HdS84 wrote: post #260
sublinear wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The semantic meaning of a blank is much better understood to everyone than an arbitrary letter like 'x'. People just want to know why it's x and not something else or how a letter can have value. They might even think how can 24 + 2 = 5? They just want something to grab onto and nobody is really teaching the concept of a symbol in a math class.

I will die on the hill that most of math would benefit from better naming, less short names and longer format. Yes, the crack math guys have no problems with terse symbols. But most people do. Good example is Greek letters for geometry. They are not really taught in school so an easy formula gets 'weird squiggly thing times another squiggly thing....' and that does not help understanding at all

This is like trying to change English or arguing that we should all speak Esperanto. Mathematical notation isn't the way it is to save ink or make it look difficult. It's that way because it works. Notation isn't set by committee, it's just a way of communication that works. If you read cutting edge research you'll find notations being invented all over the place. Most of them will never go anywhere, some will become standard in their field (like big-O) and others will become universally used (like dropping the multiplication symbol and using epsilon for a small number).

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#326

Post by SoftTalker »

margalabargala wrote: post #321
hkpack wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you personally tried to keep a teen away from a screen? If you did with a success, I would really like to hear your story and what has worked for you. Looking at my kids friends / classmates, almost all of the parents just gave up, with the exception of a small group that is still trying with the discussed approach.

"Keeping teens away from screens"? And why are there screens? Sugar is addictive. One would not necessarily expect a teen to healthily control their sugar intake; accordingly, we don't put bowls of candy around the house, and if we did we certainly wouldn't be shocked when they emptied themselves, and then thrown up our hands and said "can't keep kids from candy, what can you do?". Our kids aren't teens yet, but the…

Good luck with that. Please report back on how it goes.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#327

Post by djeastm »

ctxc wrote: post #234
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

"something they absolutely hate" is learning to read sheet music, training for skill, practicing for muscle memory. The fruits are reaped when they (me!) get older. Like I mentioned in another comment, I can play along to a song I like, play a song that is a certain memory, jam with friends at a whim. Those are not things I necessarily wanted to do when I was a kid. But the "forced" practice was required as a foundat…

> I can play along to a song I like, play a song that is a certain memory, jam with friends at a whim

You can do any of those things without learning to read music. Ask me how I know

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#328

Post by djeastm »

ohgr wrote: post #149
openplatypus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Such a bold claim coming from some who does not share their credentials on the matter. My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting. My sample of 1 contradicts your claim, but neither of us are experts on the matter.

Sample size 3 here and they are all adults and all STEM grads. You have to push them, but push them right. That's a combination of coercion and encouragement and helping them avoid procrastination. There are hills to climb and they need helping over them to where the good stuff is. I remember my eldest crying over ratios at the dining table. Then algebra at the kitchen table. Then crying again at real analysis in the…

I'd be interested to hear what she has to say about the experience

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#329

Post by margalabargala »

SoftTalker wrote: post #326
margalabargala wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Keeping teens away from screens"? And why are there screens? Sugar is addictive. One would not necessarily expect a teen to healthily control their sugar intake; accordingly, we don't put bowls of candy around the house, and if we did we certainly wouldn't be shocked when they emptied themselves, and then thrown up our hands and said "can't keep kids from candy, what can you do?". Our kids aren't teens yet, but the…

Good luck with that. Please report back on how it goes.

Happy to, how would you like me to contact you? I don't think HN allows replies after threads have been multiple years dead...

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#330

Post by zdragnar »

danenania wrote: post #225
blitzar wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m sure most people If you live in the bubble where you experience this, congratulation you live a wonderfully privileged life, never interact with anyone or are totally oblivious to the experiences of all the people you interact with on a daily basis.

So your parenting advice is to teach your kids to do things they hate while suppressing their feelings so they can be like the average unhappy person?

I hate doing laundry and cleaning dishes. I still do it, though.

There are things in life that you won't enjoy but you need to do. Learning to do them anyway is in fact a life skill.

I've seen people follow their dreams into careers they chose because they wanted them, despite those careers not being paid well. They're all at least as miserable as the average person, because what they enjoyed is now work, and they don't have money for anything they now enjoy.

"Do whatever makes you happy" is a life plan for the financially independent. Most people simply don't have that luxury.

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