Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia • Hacker News Board

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#321

Post by _carbyau_ » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 2:47 AM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #155

conception wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally if you do it to your own people the world is fine with.. just about anything.

Serbia is currently using it on its own people, and yet we here we are reading about it and discussing, with no small amount of outrage.

I similarly condemn such actions. But unless we are in a position to enforce any change in behaviour on Serbia then being unhappy on a web forum doesn't count. It's as useful as "thoughts and prayers".

Take some meaningful action away from this forum and we'll see. I am not in a meaningful position to do so unfortunately.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#322

Post by bpodgursky » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 2:47 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #314

hayst4ck wrote: post #250

It's the most important time in human history to protest/fight unchecked power because it's likely the last era of humanity that we are going to be able to. We are getting to the point where the technology that fuels oppression, including extremely pervasive surveillance, privatized intelligence services with no oversight, scalable AI agents that do as they are told, and crowd "maiming" or other forceful dispersal te…

> we now have 3 countries with the ability to erase entire cities or make the world functionally uninhabitable by humans If we're talking the Russia, the US and China then they certainly have the largest arsenals, but there's an order of magnitude difference between the stockpiles of the first two and the third. China doesn't have that many more nukes than France, and only has about double the number of warheads of t…

China is growing their arsenal quickly. And frankly, more of their warheads may actually work than Russia's.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#323

Post by pclmulqdq » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 2:50 AM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #313

pclmulqdq wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the analysis. I think he's being far too dismissive of the doctrinal considerations in his analysis. Frankly, he is also not an expert on modern warfare in any way, too. There is a good book called "eating soup with a knife" (and the author has given talks on this) that talks about the importance of doctrine and culture in constructing a fighting force (in this case, the book is mostly about counterinsurgency…

> the "static system" actually is the way to get the Russian military (and the Ukrainian military) to work Well, yes. They've been unable to launch combined-arms maneouvres. They failed to establish even air supremacy against decades-old NATO air defence kit. Russia has to fight the way it does because it's unable to fight more effectively. The author's core point stands: we didn't outlaw chemical weapons because of…

On that point we agree, that the world's leading militaries don't need them. However, they are a tool that increases the effectiveness of other militaries.

I disagree with him that the specific combined arms shock doctrine is what make those militaries the world's leading ones. Those militaries are leading because they have the best people, weapons, and training, and a combined arms shock doctrine fits with their culture.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#324

Post by sidewndr46 » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 2:51 AM UTC

lurk2 wrote: post #162

_heimdall wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's inline with what the point the GP was trying to make. Tear gas would otherwise fall into the definition of a weapon that would violate the Geneva Convention if not for the specific earmark that its okay for law enforcement to use it. Its a bit of a logical loop based only on definitions. Its not against the convention because the law includes the exception, but the exception otherwise goes against the…

> As explained in the military manual of the Netherlands, the prohibition of the use of riot control agents as a method of warfare is inspired by the fact that use of tear gas, for example, in armed conflict “runs the danger of provoking the use of other more dangerous chemicals”. A party which is being attacked by riot control agents may think it is being attacked by deadly chemical weapons and resort to the use of…

As opposed to citizens, who ought to just be thrilled their government is gassing them?

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#325

Post by orochimaaru » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 2:51 AM UTC

camilo2025 wrote: post #33

observationist wrote: post #27

Serbia had the LRAD systems on hand, after buying them in 2022, most likely from Genasys, but possibly from HyperSpike. https://genasys.com/lrad-products/ It's a legal gray area in Serbia where the use against civilians isn't explicitly forbidden, so they're playing fast and loose and moving fast to crush opposition. It's better than troops just gunning people down, but for a modern, supposedly civilized country it's…

You are aware that these LRAD systems have been used against US citizens, aren't you?

They have been used against US citizens in the United States? That is news to me.

If they have been used in other countries against US diplomatic corps that is an act of war.

Now if a US citizen uses a visit to a foreign country to protest against a government they’re on their own. I’m sorry, but US citizens shouldn’t be engaging in that and the US state department has no obligation to protect that condition.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#326

Post by sidewndr46 » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 2:53 AM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #153

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Part of the rationale for a total ban is to avoid escalating to more dangerous chemical agents Chemical weapons are tactically useless for modern militaries [1]. You’re pretty much always better off pounding with high explosives. And there isn’t a known path to escalation potential. If there were, everyone would be developing it. [1] https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch...

Chemical weapons are tactically useless to the American combat doctrine, as described in that article. As we have seen, the Russian doctrine (and Ukraine's doctrine) relies on much more brute force to push a meter at a time and much more indiscriminate damage. It's hard to imagine chemical weapons being useless. He makes the mistake of looking at how the US military fights and thinking that is the only way to fight a…

Chemical weapons are useless because they're expensive and ineffective. It's not like they haven't been deployed on the battlefield before.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#327

Post by Nursie » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 2:56 AM UTC

bpodgursky wrote: post #322

Nursie wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we now have 3 countries with the ability to erase entire cities or make the world functionally uninhabitable by humans If we're talking the Russia, the US and China then they certainly have the largest arsenals, but there's an order of magnitude difference between the stockpiles of the first two and the third. China doesn't have that many more nukes than France, and only has about double the number of warheads of t…

China is growing their arsenal quickly. And frankly, more of their warheads may actually work than Russia's.

Are they?

I'm not especially up on this stuff, but I haven't seen much about their nuclear arsenal lately. It's not that I doubt you - it would be entirely consistent with their general move to throwing their weight around, sending their warships provocatively near to other nations etc etc.

Even so, when we have a distribution that's roughly - 5k, 5k, 400, 300, 200, 200, 150, 90, 30 - it seems a little odd to draw the line of who could make the planet uninhabitable after the 400!

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#328

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 2:57 AM UTC

int_19h wrote: post #268

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you were at a protest that was starting to get a bit rowdy and somebody used one of these on you, what would you do? Leave. The moment it turns into a riot you’re doing damage to your cause. (If you’re in a protest and see hooligans, restrain them.)

Ukrainians didn't leave, and they ended up taking their country back. Twice.

> Ukrainians didn't leave, and they ended up taking their country back

I'm struggling to remember any rioting in the Maidan.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#329

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 2:59 AM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #323

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "static system" actually is the way to get the Russian military (and the Ukrainian military) to work Well, yes. They've been unable to launch combined-arms maneouvres. They failed to establish even air supremacy against decades-old NATO air defence kit. Russia has to fight the way it does because it's unable to fight more effectively. The author's core point stands: we didn't outlaw chemical weapons because of…

On that point we agree, that the world's leading militaries don't need them. However, they are a tool that increases the effectiveness of other militaries. I disagree with him that the specific combined arms shock doctrine is what make those militaries the world's leading ones. Those militaries are leading because they have the best people, weapons, and training, and a combined arms shock doctrine fits with their cul…

> they are a tool that increases the effectiveness of other militaries

Sure. Which is why the world's leading militaries banned them. OP said we banned chemical weapons "to avoid escalating to more dangerous chemical agents." There is simply no evidence we were that high minded.

Re: Military grade sonic weapon is used against protesters in Serbia

#330

Post by defrost » Mon, Mar 17, 2025, 3:01 AM UTC

Nursie wrote: post #314

hayst4ck wrote: post #250

It's the most important time in human history to protest/fight unchecked power because it's likely the last era of humanity that we are going to be able to. We are getting to the point where the technology that fuels oppression, including extremely pervasive surveillance, privatized intelligence services with no oversight, scalable AI agents that do as they are told, and crowd "maiming" or other forceful dispersal te…

> we now have 3 countries with the ability to erase entire cities or make the world functionally uninhabitable by humans If we're talking the Russia, the US and China then they certainly have the largest arsenals, but there's an order of magnitude difference between the stockpiles of the first two and the third. China doesn't have that many more nukes than France, and only has about double the number of warheads of t…

Chinese nuclear weapons, 2025

from: Nuclear Notebook, Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists

~ Hans M. Kristensen, Matt Korda, Eliana Johns, Mackenzie Knight | March 12, 2025

  The modernization of China’s nuclear arsenal has both accelerated and expanded in recent years.

  In this issue of the Nuclear Notebook, we estimate that China now possesses approximately 600 nuclear warheads, with more in production to arm future delivery systems.

  China is believed to have the fastest-growing nuclear arsenal among the nine nuclear-armed states; it is the only Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons that is significantly increasing its nuclear arsenal.

* https://thebulletin.org/premium/2025-03/chinese-nuclear-weap...

Also, the threshold laid out above was "erase an entire city" OR "make planet unihabitable".

Any nation or group with a first gen atomic weapon can erase a city .. exercising that ability can potentially lead to a greater nuclear exchange between others, particularly if it's unclear what happened and what might be about to happen.