5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows • Hacker News Board

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#321

Post by no_wizard » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 2:18 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #304

viraptor wrote: post #147

> Could maximum data speeds—on mobile devices, at home, at work—be approaching “fast enough” for most people for most purposes? That seems to be the theme across all consumer electronics as well. For an average person mid phones are good enough, bargain bin laptops are good enough, almost any TV you can buy today is good enough. People may of course desire higher quality and specific segments will have higher needs,…

That is the thing with capitalist exponential growth, it doesn't last forever, eventually it flattens out, where new goods only get acquired due to existing ones being replaced, or newer generations getting to acquire their first products. Business should learn to earn just good enough to make by.

Business culture of the 50s and 60s was closer to this, largely due to how taxes on corporations worked. At least if I'm to believe some business historians I follow.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#322

Post by madwolf » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 2:34 PM UTC

gerdesj wrote: post #214

OK so someone has noticed that you "only" need 15MBs-1 for a 4K stream. Jolly good. Now let's address latency - that entire article only mentioned the word once and it looks like it was by accident. Latency isn't cool but it is why your Teams/Zoom/whatevs call sounds a bit odd. You are probably used to the weird over-talking episodes you get when a sound stream goes somewhat async. You put up with it but you really s…

A decent quality stream is not 256 kilobytes per second (1/4 megabyte), as you write. You probably meant 256kilobits, which is only 32 kilobytes. For speech that’s VERY high quality. Teams actually uses either G.722 or SILK codec, which is just 40kbit/s. That’s 5 kilobytes per second.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#323

Post by pjmlp » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 2:41 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #321

pjmlp wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the thing with capitalist exponential growth, it doesn't last forever, eventually it flattens out, where new goods only get acquired due to existing ones being replaced, or newer generations getting to acquire their first products. Business should learn to earn just good enough to make by.

Business culture of the 50s and 60s was closer to this, largely due to how taxes on corporations worked. At least if I'm to believe some business historians I follow.

That and there wasn't any VC culture as such.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#324

Post by bastawhiz » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 2:47 PM UTC

The most data intensive thing you can stream to a device is video. For two reasons:

1. The whole point of video is that you need all of the data, in order

2. Video is the only thing, really, that requires that much data per second of sensory input.

Mobile devices aren't really getting more pixels. And hardware isn't improving enough the we have spare cycles for decoding/decrypting/rendering 16K video or whatever, and even if it did, the batteries can't handle that. It's obvious to me that we don't need more bandwidth. My phone would be instantly dead if I was downloading and processing data at a gigabit per second.

Other than downloading very large files (why?), I don't think we'll invent any new use cases that can make use of more bits or second.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#325

Post by baq » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 2:50 PM UTC

bastawhiz wrote: post #324

The most data intensive thing you can stream to a device is video. For two reasons: 1. The whole point of video is that you need all of the data, in order 2. Video is the only thing, really, that requires that much data per second of sensory input. Mobile devices aren't really getting more pixels. And hardware isn't improving enough the we have spare cycles for decoding/decrypting/rendering 16K video or whatever, and…

> There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement.

Lord Kelvin, 1897

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#326

Post by brianwawok » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 2:53 PM UTC

bastawhiz wrote: post #324

The most data intensive thing you can stream to a device is video. For two reasons: 1. The whole point of video is that you need all of the data, in order 2. Video is the only thing, really, that requires that much data per second of sensory input. Mobile devices aren't really getting more pixels. And hardware isn't improving enough the we have spare cycles for decoding/decrypting/rendering 16K video or whatever, and…

And carriers limit video bandwidth. I forgot the details, but on certain tmobile plans you got capped to 1080p or a lower resolution, only on the higher plans can you get whatever your phone will support. Let’s the user pay less for less fancy video, and the risk of stirring up the net neutrality pot.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#327

Post by vekatimest » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 2:57 PM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #286

rglullis wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4K video reaches you only because it's compressed to crap. Streaming video gets compressed to crap. People are being forced to believe that it is better to have 100% of crap provided in real time instead of waiting just a few extra moments to have the best possible experience. Here is a trick for movie nights with the family: choose the movie you want to watch, start your torrent and tell everyone "let's go make po…

>Streaming video gets compressed to crap. That's because your source video is crap. I'm not sure if you realize it, but all forms of digital media playback are streaming. Yes, even that MP4 stored locally on your SSD. There is literally no difference between "playing" that MP4 and "streaming" a Youtube or Netflix video. Yes, even playing an 8K Blu-Ray video is still streaming.

"Streaming" as most people think of it is "heavily compressed video optimized for low bandwidth being piped over a network", usually with no user choice of resolution, encoding, or playback settings

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#328

Post by Zigurd » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 3:13 PM UTC

ksec wrote: post #319

rsynnott wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5G is (at least on paper) _very_ low latency; couple of ms.

It is not on paper. Couple of ms ( 4ms ) is real, except it is not normal 5G but specific superset / version of 5G. Your network needs to be End to End running on 5G-A ( 3GPP Rel 18 ) with full SA ( Stand Alone ) using NR ( New Radio ) only. Right now AFAIK only Mobile networks in China has managed to run that. ( Along with turning on VoNR ) Most other network are still behind in deployment and switching.

Although the deployments are very limited, wouldn't the 5G mmWave coverage, in NFL stadiums for example, need to have both New Radio (NR) and Stand Alone (SA)? Or is there some bodge for down-rating your mmWave experience to a non-Stand Alone network? I understand you won't get SA end-to-end calling an endpoint on an LTE network, but, with 5G FWA also needing SA to achieve full performance, SA should be pretty widespread in the US, or is it?

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#329

Post by linsomniac » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 3:19 PM UTC

consp wrote: post #316

linsomniac wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Longer distance and penetration is not always an advantage Exactly. When I was running WiFi for PyCon, I kept the radios lower (on tables) and the power levels at the lower end (especially for 2.4GHz, which a lot of devices still were limited to at the time). Human bodies do a good job of limiting the cell size and interference between adjacent APs in that model. I could count on at least a couple people every confe…

That works if you control all the radios. If there is some other device screaming into the void you are screwed either way. (been there)

One event I particularly remember, the venue had ONE AP (and they had assured us that they could provide WiFi coverage for our 500 users, that was set to high power, their AP I found during the event, it was on the floor under a bench outside the master ballroom. This was the venue that I eventually tracked down was handing out DHCP leases with IP addresses that had a gateway address in a different subnet than the client IP. That was, admittedly, 2005, but the confidence they had in being able to serve our attendees, despite us telling them it wasn't going to be as easy as they thought, was stunning.

Re: 5G networks meet consumer needs as mobile data growth slows

#330

Post by nerdponx » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 3:28 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #265

yieldcrv wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m all for advancements in the size of various models able to be loaded onto devices, and the amount of fast ram available for them

Sure, but why is my Samsung tumble dryer "enhanced with AI" now? You know what it does? You turn it on, it shows "optimising with AI" on the screen....to show you the most used programme. That's not AI, that's a counter in a text file somewhere. But of course everything has to have AI now so my tumble dryer now has AI. The market has spoken.

And in the meantime the real physical buttons that last for millions of presses have been replaced with finicky touch buttons that don't work when there's a drop of moisture on the screen, and the whole panel dies after 2 years (only 1 year warranty sorry) and they don't sell replacements so you have to buy a new dryer or get a janky offbrand replacement off of Ebay and spend an afternoon trying to figure out how to install it (if it's even possible).

This is robber baron behavior. We aren't sending our kids to the coal breakers anymore (at least not until OSHA is shut down and child labor laws are ruled unconstitutional violations of the 1st amendment), but we are all being squeezed to the limits of our incomes and sanities, so directors and investors and the CEO can buy more yachts.