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String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

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Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#321

Post by SuperNinKenDo »

mindslight wrote: post #155
nkurz wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's a reasonable possibility as well. It's not proof of an agenda, and might be prudent, but I do think it's a form of bias. There's a thin line between skipping "possibly superfluous" details and skipping core parts of a story that might provide evidence for viewpoints one disagrees with. The result is still that readers need to realize that they are being presented with a consciously edited narrative and no…

It was quite easy to skim over some original source material from both sinceriously.fyi and zizians.info. By my quick reading, and taking a very high level view, the philosophy is responsible for the trans and also for the violence. But an article harping on the correlation as implied causation without focusing on the hidden variable behind them both is just trying to fuel the fire of the reactionary movement. In gen…

That seems like an argument for not ignoring the matter in media that wishes to avoid honing in on the sensitive issue. Now instead of reading an article that integrates but doesn't centre the trans issue, I have read one that doesn't mention it, which I now feel to be dishonest, and one which centres the trans issue above all else, which I view to be biased, but not dishonest. So well done to the authors of the OP, now I can't help but be convinced the trans factor is far more important than I might have otherwise.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#322

Post by all2 »

sterlind wrote: post #295
nkurz wrote: post #49

Most of the news coverage I've seen of this story is omitting what some might consider a relevant detail: almost all the members of this group are trans. This is a divisive topic, but failing to mention this makes me worry a story is pushing a particular agenda rather than trying to tell the facts. Here's what the story looks like if the trans activism is considered central to the story: https://thepostmillennial.com…

it's been an exhausting couple of weeks for me, as a trans person. one executive order after another, explicitly attacking us. scrambling to update all my documents, navigating a Kafkaesque bureaucracy with constantly shifting rules. now this. there are like six Zizians. there are millions of trans people. I'm sure that many of the Zizians being trans says something about the Ziz cult, but Ziz doesn't say anything ab…

> any evil one trans person does, is used to stain all trans people. recognize this tendency; don't let this become like blood libel.

As a Christian, I can empathize. The wrongs and hypocrisies of so many are heaped on those who have no relation to the actions.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#323

Post by zozbot234 »

snickerbockers wrote: post #279
adastra22 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ziz method of indoctrination involves convincing his minions they are trapped inside a mental framework they need to break free of. Trans people already feel trapped in a body not aligned with who they are, and are naturally susceptible to this message (and therefore natural targets for recruitment).

I was wondering if it's relevant that so many of them are young people with "data science" degrees and they call themselves "rationalists". Sounds like they have some sort of superiority complex that might make them more susceptible to justifying acts of violence when it's "rational".

> "rationalists". Sounds like they have some sort of superiority complex

Oh yes, this is totally a thing. They're also weirdly obsessed with I.Q. comparisons. They're the kind of community where you might actually witness someone talking about "High I.Q." and "Low I.Q." individuals - and making a claim like "my I.Q. is one of the highest", way before someone else made that cool.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#324

Post by pjs_ »

rachofsunshine wrote: post #149

[Former member of that world, roommates with one of Ziz's friends for a while, so I feel reasonably qualified to speak on this.] The problem with rationalists/EA as a group has never been the rationality, but the people practicing it and the cultural norms they endorse as a community. As relevant here: 1) While following logical threads to their conclusions is a useful exercise, each logical step often involves some…

Great summary

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#326

Post by photochemsyn »

nkurz wrote: post #49

Most of the news coverage I've seen of this story is omitting what some might consider a relevant detail: almost all the members of this group are trans. This is a divisive topic, but failing to mention this makes me worry a story is pushing a particular agenda rather than trying to tell the facts. Here's what the story looks like if the trans activism is considered central to the story: https://thepostmillennial.com…

Are people confusing transgender and transhumanism somehow? Looking up rationalist philosophy it seems to be about 'improving' the human species, human potential movement related, people becoming cyborgs and living forever as AI uploads, etc.? Vaguely eugenic in outlook, if more individualist. I suppose such a philosophy views gender as an irrelevant issue, so recruiting transgender people would be something they do?

A good rule of thumb is that people who view philosophy as something other than an amusing pasttime are best avoided, especially when they're spending their time trying to recruit others into their cult.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#327

Post by rexpop »

dgfitz wrote: post #290
rexpop wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Plenty of antisocial (or worse) behaviour has been promulgated by those indisputably at the top of the social food chain. This isn't a counterpoint to "fix the world," because those "at the top of the social food chain" are, of course, partners in an oppressor/oppressed dynamic that prevents both parties from realize their full human potential. "As the oppressors dehumanize others and violate their rights, they the…

The whole food chain is encapsulated in “the world” in this case. I don’t think your point stands.

> I don’t think your point stands.

Elaborate?

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#329

Post by t_mann »

throwawayk7h wrote: post #187
t_mann wrote: post #144

Rationalism? The term has been used a lot of times since Pythagoras [0], but the combination of Bay Area, Oxford, existential risks, AI safety makes it sound like this particular movement could have formed in the same mold as Effective Altruism and Long-Termism (ie, the "it's objectively better for humanity if you give us money to buy a castle in France than whatever you'd do with it" crowd that SBF sprung from). Can…

That castle was found to be more cost-effective than any other space the group could have purchased, for the simple reason that almost nobody wants castles anymore. It was chosen because it was the best calculation; the optics of it were not considered. It would be less disingenuous if you were to say EA is the "it's objectively better for humanity if you give us money to buy a conference space in France than whateve…

Both are factual, the longer statement has more nuance, which is unsurprising. If the emphasis on the castle and SBF - out of all the things and people you could highlight about EA - concisely gives away that I have a negative opinion of it then that was intended. I view SBF as an unsurprising, if extreme, consequence of that kind of thinking. I have a harder time making any sense of the OP story in this context, that's why I was seeking clarification here.

Re: String of recent killings linked to Bay Area 'Zizians'

#330

Post by jimrandomh »

The HN title added the word "rationalist", which isn't in the source article. This is editorializing in a way that feels kind of slander-y. Their relationship to the bay area rationalist community is that we kicked them out long before any of this started.
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