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Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

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Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#321

Post by 4gotunameagain »

llm_trw wrote: post #150
chipdart wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Denmarks agricultural performance is not great at all. it's way too expensive to produce stuff. if it wasn't for EU subsidies the agricultural sector in Denmark would loose over 50% of their profits. Agriculture in the EU is renowned for not being financially unjustified. For decades it's been a finantial no-brainer to import the bulk of agricultural products from south America and Africa. This is not new or the re…

You'd think that people would have realized this after Europe avoided mass death from Russian gas being cut off only because the winter was mild.

Interesting way to frame "Russian gas being cut off" instead of "most likely US orchestrated biggest ally to ally sabotage in history".

I'm still mad about it, yes. Germany's dependence on Russian gas was a terrible thing, but risking my livelihood for 4D geopolitics chess is much worse.

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#322

Post by lofaszvanitt »

SoftTalker wrote: post #168
JacobJeppesen wrote: post #162

I've seen a bit of confusion regarding this. First, it's 10% of Denmark's total land area, which is roughly equivalent to 15% of farmland area. Second, the conversion of farmland area into nature and forests is mainly for improving water quality, as excess nitrogen from agriculture has essentially killed the rivers and coastal waters through oxygen depletion from algae. Regarding global warming and CO2, the area conv…

> it's actually a CO2-equivalent (CO2e) tax, which includes a range of other gasses. E.g., 1kg of methane is 25kg CO2e Your pig farmers must be thrilled.

Give them seaweeds to lower their gas output.

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#323

Post by addcommitpush »

geysersam wrote: post #308
addcommitpush wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone has the ability to impact global CO2 emmissions. I'm afraid most people are smaller-than-Denmark groups, and thus unable whatsoever to impact global emissions. It's just math.

1e-10 is reeeallly close to zero, therefore 1e10 * 1e-10 is also close to zero. That's what your math sounds like to me.

Isn't it true?

    f = lambda x: (1/x) * x
    f(1e309)
yields NaN, not 1.

(So I guess Denmark is at least 1e309-sized in some metric).

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#324

Post by account42 »

JacobJeppesen wrote: post #306
SoftTalker wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's actually a CO2-equivalent (CO2e) tax, which includes a range of other gasses. E.g., 1kg of methane is 25kg CO2e Your pig farmers must be thrilled.

It comes with quite a lot of compensation and subsidies, so they're less angry than you might expect. Also, an important note here is that they were part of the negotiations, and as such were part of the agreement which was proposed to the parliament. All that being said, you're right, they're not exactly thrilled with the government adding taxes and monitoring them more.

> It comes with quite a lot of compensation and subsidies, so they're less angry than you might expect.

Do people really still buy this trick?

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#325

Post by incomingpain »

Most of europe agreed to do this. I eagerly hope all of the EU immediately follows through with these commitments.

Lucky denmark for being able to just be anti-farmer. France and other countries have to choose a major city to demolish to meet their commitments.

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#326

Post by account42 »

manvillej wrote: post #202
benmanns wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should start doing more taxes combined with subsidies. Give everyone a $1/t carbon tax. Give everyone a ~$1/t farming subsidy based on current carbon production. Nobody loses, but everyone is incentivized to decrease carbon production and the faster ones profit more. Phase out the subsidy over X years if you like. Otherwise, you’re right. We’re upsetting the balance of a very complex, very important system…

a combined tax and subsidy to try to drive farmers into more sustainable practices in a fiscally neutral way isn't a bad idea, but I think it is just a very risky and necessary roll of the dice. I think inevitably, there will be price increases. The questions is just how bad and how many farms survive the transition.

You misunderstand, driving small farms out of businness so they can be taken over by Gates and other big farming monopolies is the real goal not an unwanted side effect.

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#327

Post by account42 »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #321
llm_trw wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd think that people would have realized this after Europe avoided mass death from Russian gas being cut off only because the winter was mild.

Interesting way to frame "Russian gas being cut off" instead of "most likely US orchestrated biggest ally to ally sabotage in history". I'm still mad about it, yes. Germany's dependence on Russian gas was a terrible thing, but risking my livelihood for 4D geopolitics chess is much worse.

This doesn't change the strategic need to maintain local production though.

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#328

Post by fifilura »

JacobJeppesen wrote: post #306
SoftTalker wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's actually a CO2-equivalent (CO2e) tax, which includes a range of other gasses. E.g., 1kg of methane is 25kg CO2e Your pig farmers must be thrilled.

It comes with quite a lot of compensation and subsidies, so they're less angry than you might expect. Also, an important note here is that they were part of the negotiations, and as such were part of the agreement which was proposed to the parliament. All that being said, you're right, they're not exactly thrilled with the government adding taxes and monitoring them more.

So you tax them for CO2 and then subsidize them for the same reason?

How does help anyone else than salaries for tax and subsidy administrators?

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#329

Post by danlitt »

manvillej wrote: post #204
mmooss wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently the public subsidizes the agriculture industry by paying for the consequences of the industry's carbon emissions. Also, that subsidy distorts industry choices in favor of carbon. The industry might be accustomed to profiting from the subsidy, but that doesn't make them entitled to it! And certainly the industry has had plenty of time to anticipate and adjust to the problems of carbon emissions.

Governments pay to keep food at the cheapest point possible to ensure stability. a fed population doesn't kill their governments. Agriculture is not a regular industry; its a national security issue Farming is not a profitable endeavor. There would be a lot less financial advisors in the world otherwise. A carbon tax will either drive up prices or reduce suppliers, increasing prices. Reducing farmland will require mo…

I am not sure how this responds to the comment you are actually responding to. You say,

> Governments pay to keep food cheap > A carbon tax will either drive up prices or [drive up prices]

So, this is just number rearranging. The public pays either way. Ok. The comment you replied to says

> Currently the public subsidizes the agriculture industry by paying for the consequences of the industry's carbon emissions.

So the public pays in this case too. More number rearranging. Not at all clear why this makes prices increase.

So why do you think this implies prices increase? Do you think the price of carbon determined by the government is too high? Or do you just want to ignore this externality until we pay it all at once?

Re: Denmark will plant 1B trees and convert 10% of farmland into forest

#330

Post by oezi »

geysersam wrote: post #308
addcommitpush wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone has the ability to impact global CO2 emmissions. I'm afraid most people are smaller-than-Denmark groups, and thus unable whatsoever to impact global emissions. It's just math.

1e-10 is reeeallly close to zero, therefore 1e10 * 1e-10 is also close to zero. That's what your math sounds like to me.

His math is x ~ 0, hence x / 10 = 0, hence x = NaN.

The starting point is just wrong that Denmark can't play a role when it comes to climate change. Denmark can make a change. It is like saying that when voting that no individual vote or county matters, when the opposite is true: every vote matters in the same way.

Every kg CO2 saved is good... (obviously we should strive for the most economic way to save CO2).

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