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How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

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Re: How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

#321

Post by aniviacat »

archerx wrote: post #302
satvikpendem wrote: post #35

I know lots of people who play Factorio but for me, I guess it just feels too much like work? Whenever I play it, I get the distinct feeling that I could instead do the same thing but productively instead, such as by contributing to my OSS projects (sometimes, maybe even for profit instead). I never got into these types of programmatic games for precisely this reason but I'd like to understand other perspectives on t…

I feel the same way, I was building something in a game 10 years ago and I thought to myself, “I’m putting all this effort into this game and at the end I won’t really have anything to show for it and this feels like the same energy I use when programming, let me program instead”. This thought changed me from someone who plays games to someone who makes games. The only real game I find entertaining and fun these days…

> I’m putting all this effort into this game and at the end I won’t really have anything to show for it

You will have something to show for it: Joy.

If your only interest is to invest effort into producing something that provides some kind of physical value, then of course work will be more interesting than games.

Development has fun parts and it has tedious parts. The tedious parts are what usually makes for a good product. Factorio removes that part; because it is not about producing a product, it's about having fun.

> Not sure if it’s a blessing or a curse.

That's up to you, but for me it'd be a curse, not being able to do thing just for fun anymore, because of always feeling a pressure to be productive.

Re: How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

#322

Post by lucb1e »

throwaway19972 wrote: post #269
downut wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We keep a postit list next to the breadmaker and write stuff down when we need to get something. Then when it is time to go shopping, we simply peel off the list and away we go. I am getting disgusted by people who need to have that screen in their hand, all waking hours.

I won't go so far as to say I'm disgusted by what others do, but I am increasingly resenting having to use my phone for myriad tasks that shouldn't require a phone in the first place. Like unlocking my apartment door. It's obviously so that someone can get a recurring cut where they would have once provided a one-time semi-permanent solution (like a key, or a notepad). I mean, maybe some of this will be blunted over…

> It's obviously so that someone can get a recurring cut

As the person who started this discussion about needing software for household things, let me be clear that this is not the sort of situation I'm talking about! The things I use, I either made or maintain myself because it's my hobby. Nobody needs to use them who doesn't want to and there is no cut. I think the conversation diverges here as this is not the same situation! Probably anyone would agree that being forced to use something or other is very different from being able to use something or other.

Re: How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

#323

Post by herpdyderp »

mft_ wrote: post #268

I've started and re-started Factorio several times, and always enjoy it... up the point where an automated train network is necessary. Here, I always run into problems, and no amount of researching or fettling of the setup seems to guarantee that my trains work. Sometimes they do... often, I have to drive them manually. Anyway, if you like Factorio, you might also enjoy Mindustry: simmilar-ish, less constructional de…

The train logistics system in 2.0 has been vastly improved. I was just able to make a “set and forget” train automation system. All I need to do is add more stations and, when necessary, more trains. Before this updated you needed mods for this.

Re: How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

#324

Post by lucb1e »

pcl wrote: post #308
medstrom wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you do?

I’d use tailscale or WireGuard for remote access, for starters.

That's... the situation as described in the post which the comment above you was responding to?

> The only downside is that internet connectivity being down means, e.g., you need to remember to load the grocery list before leaving the house that has the server in it

Wireguard or Tailscale Inc. are not magically going to resolve that situation. Does Tailscale even work locally if your internet is down or does it require their cloud for NAT punching regardless of whether you're on the server's LAN? For starters

Re: How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

#326

Post by armada651 »

aniviacat wrote: post #321
archerx wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same way, I was building something in a game 10 years ago and I thought to myself, “I’m putting all this effort into this game and at the end I won’t really have anything to show for it and this feels like the same energy I use when programming, let me program instead”. This thought changed me from someone who plays games to someone who makes games. The only real game I find entertaining and fun these days…

> I’m putting all this effort into this game and at the end I won’t really have anything to show for it You will have something to show for it: Joy. If your only interest is to invest effort into producing something that provides some kind of physical value, then of course work will be more interesting than games. Development has fun parts and it has tedious parts. The tedious parts are what usually makes for a good…

> Development has fun parts and it has tedious parts. The tedious parts are what usually makes for a good product. Factorio removes that part; because it is not about producing a product, it's about having fun.

Factorio also has tons of tedious parts. It really isn't all that different in that regard in my experience.

There are many games these days that are designed to have a certain element of tediousness (grind) in them, because this gives you the sense of being productive without actually producing anything.

> That's up to you, but for me it'd be a curse, not being able to do thing just for fun anymore, because of always feeling a pressure to be productive.

I don't think they mean to say they always feel a pressure to be productive. If it costs you exactly the same amount of energy and you get the same amount of joy from it, then why would you not choose an activity that produces something of enduring value?

Re: How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

#327

Post by ang_cire »

lucb1e wrote: post #125
dartos wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When making software that's supposed to be used, you can't mess around that much. At the end of the day, someone has to use it and if its weird it'll be bad. This makes me sad. You don’t need to make software for mass appeal. Git is weird and bizarre (especially when initially released), but it’s used and well loved.

> You don’t need to make software for mass appeal. Hear, hear. I would tell you all about the tools my household runs on but it is as you say. Still gives me a lot of satisfaction to make stuff that makes life better, and for someone more adventurous than me it might also be something you can use to try out new technologies or build something for on your CV. The only downside is that internet connectivity being down…

Can you not just screenshot the page on your phone as a backup before you leave?

Re: How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

#328

Post by ecocentrik »

aniviacat wrote: post #321
archerx wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same way, I was building something in a game 10 years ago and I thought to myself, “I’m putting all this effort into this game and at the end I won’t really have anything to show for it and this feels like the same energy I use when programming, let me program instead”. This thought changed me from someone who plays games to someone who makes games. The only real game I find entertaining and fun these days…

> I’m putting all this effort into this game and at the end I won’t really have anything to show for it You will have something to show for it: Joy. If your only interest is to invest effort into producing something that provides some kind of physical value, then of course work will be more interesting than games. Development has fun parts and it has tedious parts. The tedious parts are what usually makes for a good…

You're discounting the joy you get from actually solving a problem for yourself and other people which can provide serious long term satisfaction and monetary rewards.

For diversion, I try disconnecting from screens and doing something healthy that involves the use of my physical body. I find walking, hiking, swimming and running very enjoyable. I'm also a big fan of tennis, racquetball and table tennis. I still play video games occasionally when there's not an option to engage with the physical world for diversion but I really prefer chess to most modern video games.

Re: How 'Factorio' seduced Silicon Valley and me

#330

Post by Retric »

aniviacat wrote: post #321
archerx wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same way, I was building something in a game 10 years ago and I thought to myself, “I’m putting all this effort into this game and at the end I won’t really have anything to show for it and this feels like the same energy I use when programming, let me program instead”. This thought changed me from someone who plays games to someone who makes games. The only real game I find entertaining and fun these days…

> I’m putting all this effort into this game and at the end I won’t really have anything to show for it You will have something to show for it: Joy. If your only interest is to invest effort into producing something that provides some kind of physical value, then of course work will be more interesting than games. Development has fun parts and it has tedious parts. The tedious parts are what usually makes for a good…

Programming can still beat most games in terms of joy. I just miss that burst of satisfaction from completing something in programming because it’s never really done just good enough for production.

Factorio and other open ended optimization games scratch the same itch as programming without any payoff. Speed running feels different because execution is so important optimal changes over time, and you get a finite endpoint.

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