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Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

innocenceproject.org

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Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#321

Post by Hasu »

seadan83 wrote: post #313
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who, exactly, gets to choose how unbiased the prosecutor is? You won't get that from a democratic election and you won't get that from elected officials choosing them.

My question is sincere. If the upstream comment wants to choose bias, then a "yes" answer to my question would be a consistent position and interesting if sincerely answered that way. To your question, a priori bias would be hard to evaluate. Post facto there would be some data and perhaps some metrics that could be used. It would less be "who", but "how." Prosecutor bias is a bit nebulous though. Prosecutors should…

> If the upstream comment wants to choose bias, then a "yes" answer to my question would be a consistent position and interesting if sincerely answered that way.

I have no idea what you're saying here, but my comment was just saying that I want to vote for prosecutors rather than having them appointed. I prefer to decide for myself how biased the candidates are than to trust an elected official to pick someone who is unbiased, and to have my fellow citizens vote as well.

I don't have to assent to any random Dick, Joe, or Harry choosing a prosecutor for me to believe that everyone is better off if we are all prosecuted by someone elected.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#322

Post by redundantly »

snapcaster wrote: post #133
01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No, we lost Roe v. Wade because the democrat party is so useless at representing our interests they failed to ever pass any law granting the right to abortion. Republicans didn't sit on their hands complacently for 40 years like democrats they followed a systematic approach to overturning it. Meanwhile the democrats did nothing except ask me for more money and continue to take L after L

This downplays the GOP’s role. Their decades-long plan, including stacking the courts, reveals just how hateful and ruthless they are in pursuing their agenda.

While Democrats could have done more, obstacles like the filibuster and narrow majorities made passing protections difficult. The bigger issue is the GOP’s deliberate and depraved effort to strip away rights. Don’t give them a pass on it by blaming others.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#323

Post by analog31 »

MikeAmelung wrote: post #295
diogenes_atx wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The full quote from the article in justia.com states the following: "In November of 1999, University City police approached Asaro to speak with her about the murder. Asaro told the police that Williams admitted to her that he had killed Gayle. The next day, the police searched the Buick LeSabre and found the Post-Dispatch ruler and calculator belonging to Gayle. The police also recovered the laptop computer from Glen…

I was just helping everyone understand that your important clarification, was in fact, wrong. Since I wasn't on the jury, I can't say whether or not I would have been ok with the death penalty in this case, although the murder was particularly heinous.

As I understand it, you have to be OK with the death penalty, to be on a capital jury.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#324

Post by seadan83 »

Hasu wrote: post #319
seadan83 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you're also okay with me choosing the bias of a prosecutor prosecuting you?

No, that's silly and not at all the same thing as a prosecutor being accountable to the electorate as a whole. The entire point is that I don't trust one person, or a small group of people, to pick someone who is "unbiased". I don't trust the electorate as a whole either, but I trust them more than elected officials. Only three states in the US have appointed, rather than elected, district attorneys. The United State…

> No, that's silly and not at all the same thing as a prosecutor being accountable to the electorate as a whole.

In my perspective, it is exactly the same thing when you disagree with the electorate. Which is why (personnally) I don't want you, or any electorate choosing prosecutors.

If every time you voted for a prosecutor, and every time your vote was in a minority, would you still feel you had a say in the bias of the prosecutor?

I agree with respect to appointments being not good. In my view those are proxies for an election. I personally trust neither electorate nor elected officials.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#325

Post by ToValueFunfetti »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #233
voisin wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction. And that’s the only way the third point (had the items in the car) was known (from the girlfriend).

> argument is that the girlfriend and jailhouse snitch both were looking to get the $10k reward money for his conviction The Governor's counterargument being the "girlfriend never requested the reward for information about Ms. Gayle’s murder, despite claims that she was only interested in money" [1]. The interesting thing is I could see myself, were I on the jury, and if the other facts of the case aligned, finding W…

Probabilities at the extremes are counterintuitively easy to distinguish. There is a negligible difference between the evidence that would leave you 50% certain and that which would leave you 51% certain, but if you go from 99.9% to 99.99% certain, your evidence has gotten 10x stronger.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#326

Post by seadan83 »

Hasu wrote: post #321
seadan83 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question is sincere. If the upstream comment wants to choose bias, then a "yes" answer to my question would be a consistent position and interesting if sincerely answered that way. To your question, a priori bias would be hard to evaluate. Post facto there would be some data and perhaps some metrics that could be used. It would less be "who", but "how." Prosecutor bias is a bit nebulous though. Prosecutors should…

> If the upstream comment wants to choose bias, then a "yes" answer to my question would be a consistent position and interesting if sincerely answered that way. I have no idea what you're saying here, but my comment was just saying that I want to vote for prosecutors rather than having them appointed. I prefer to decide for myself how biased the candidates are than to trust an elected official to pick someone who is…

> I prefer to decide for myself how biased the candidates

> have my fellow citizens vote as well.

I find those positions at odds to one another. Personally I don't want prosecutors to be neither appointed by elected officials nor elected. Though, I am more digging into that you think you might get a choice when voting.

Re-read what I wrote. I believe the grammar correct and it is clear.

Though, I'll illustrate with an example. Let's say the electorate is 10 people. You, 3 of your friends that think identical to you, and me with 5 of my friends that think identical to me. This is a 6 vs 4 situation. Now let's say we put up two prosecutors for election. One who will always try you unjustly, and one who will always try me unjustly. If there is an election, the 6 to 4 majority would not vote your way. Thus, despite there being a vote - you are not getting the choice of bias. Ergo, when saying (paraphrasing) "I want to choose the bias via vote", you are also saying: i am okay with others deciding the bias of a prosecutor against me

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#327

Post by qingcharles »

diogenes_atx wrote: post #314
lolinder wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the ruler and calculator in fact belonged to the victim that is an important clarification of your "the police did not find the victim's property in Williams' car", and your reaction is unnecessarily dismissive. Just acknowledge the error and move on, no need for sarcastic defensiveness.

Even if the police were able to establish that the ruler and calculator belonged to the victim, it is merely circumstantial evidence. It does not prove Williams was the killer. Here is a quick summary of the main issues: (1) There is no reliable evidence that Williams is guilty of the crime; (2) The DNA evidence from the crime scene does not match Williams; (3) Numerous legal experts, including St. Louis County Prose…

What percentage of trials rely on circumstantial evidence? It has to be a high percentage.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#328

Post by qingcharles »

istjohn wrote: post #250

If we aren't going to abolish the death penalty, we should at least require a higher standard of proof than beyond a reasonable doubt to carry it out. It should require incontrovertible proof. Circumstantial evidence should not be allowed. Expert testimony should be barred. The evidence must be conclusive, plain, and certain to every member of the jury. This would allow you to execute, e.g., mass shooters who give th…

There's almost never incontrovertible proof in a criminal trial. Even if the suspect is on camera confessing. The sheer number of people who confessed to crimes and were then found innocent through DNA evidence is perturbing.

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#329

Post by trainfromkansas »

wpm wrote: post #264
MikeAmelung wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The next day, the police searched the Buick LeSabre and found the Post-Dispatch ruler and calculator belonging to Gayle. The police also recovered the laptop computer from Glenn Roberts. The laptop was identified as the one stolen from Gayle's residence." https://law.justia.com/cases/missouri/supreme-court/2003/sc-...

Circumstantial. There are a 1000 different ways he could have obtained those items without committing a murder. Prove that having them is proof positive he killed someone.

"Circumstantial" evidence is often stronger than "direct" evidence. e.g. DNA is almost always "circumstantial", yet more modernly maligned eye witness evidence is "direct".

Re: Who is Marcellus Williams: Execution in Missouri despite evidence of innocence

#330

Post by qingcharles »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #93
JeremyNT wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's plenty of evidence. He confessed to his girlfriend, and a cellmate. Be careful, this is hearsay and not evidence. Those people claim that he confessed to them, but there is a lot more context. Here is what the linked story says about the "he confessed" part: > The investigation had gone cold until a jail inmate named Henry Cole, a man with a lengthy record, claimed that Mr. Williams confessed to him that he…

Someone who is incarcerated snitching on someone who’s in there with them just screams “give me your cupcake or I’m gonna tell the cops you confessed to me”. Williams was also a person who was black and Muslim so prejudice alone could have been a motivation

As someone who has personally known jailhouse snitches, I don't think this is accurate. The biggest problem with becoming a snitch is that you are then forever more labeled as a snitch, and while (unlike the movies) this is unlikely to result in violence, you will certainly be shunned for the rest of your prison life.
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