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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#321
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Consciousness is the individual experience of the "interiority" of a world model constructed in the brain. A better definition I think is to say an entity or system is conscious to the extent it’s world model is encompassing / “complete” and self-conscious when its world model includes itself and its own internal states. By this definition there are many continuous levels of consciousness and self-consciousness and…

Yeah, I do agree with this. There must be some strong correlation there: where a better world-model allows you to be more intelligent. Especially if that world-model contains yourself (e.g. self-consciousness). I do, however, fundamentally believe that our interior conscious experience IS our world model: e.g. There's some property of the information system we live in* such that any tightly integrated and time-cohere…

Intelligence can be defined as the ability to accurately predict the future consequences of one's actions. And the only way to make such predictions is by having an internal model of how the world works.

Moreover, for social species that live and evolve in groups, like humans, this world-model must crucially include a model of oneself and other minds. We need to be able to predict how others will think and react to our own behaviors. This is what gives rise to self-consciousness and "theory of mind" - a world-model that is recursive and includes representations of itself.

That said, while our conscious experience seems deeply linked to our world-model, the world-model likely encompasses much more than just conscious awareness. It runs in the background, guiding our reflexes, breathing, balance, and myriad other functions below the level of consciousness. It takes in raw sensory data and interprets it, and uses feelings and emotions as a communication channel to influence conscious thought.

There are known critical developmental windows during which an animal's world-model is shaped by early sensory experiences and social interactions. If key stimuli are missing during these windows, the world-model may remain stunted in certain ways even if the missing stimuli are later provided. The animal may compensate through other means, but its overall intelligence - its ability to model and predict - will be constrained by the limitations of its world-model.

So in that sense, a highly sophisticated but narrowly specialized world-model, as in a mathematical or musical savant, may produce an individual who is brilliant in one domain but quite limited in general intelligence.

Whereas a broad but shallower world-model, as in many animals, can enable robust if limited intelligence that is well-adapted to the animal's ecological niche.

Evolution tends to select for world-models and intelligence that are "just enough" for an animal's lifestyle and no more. The metabolic cost of excess intelligence makes it maladaptive. So we see each species with a world-model and associated intelligence that is tailored to its particular environment and survival needs.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#322
post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says that you have more detail. An eagle can see much farther and in more detail than you, and yeah it can fly. A bat has sonar. Some orient by Earths magnetic field which we do not detect. Etc.

It was just an extrapolation regarding brain size. But you're right it's just a napkin theory.

Then compare orca brains to ours. Theirs are larger and more wrinkly.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#323
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're over complicating it. When people generally talk about consciousness, they're talking about the phenomenology of awareness in the present moment. It's not really hard to define. It's difficult to establish whether or not an animal is conscious in the way that it's difficult to establish whether another person is conscious. The only evidence we have for consciousness is the fact that we personally exper…

I recently learned that some people do not have an inner monologue. This knowledge now affects my assumptions about consciousness and whether it’s really knowable.

As an Aphantasian, this!

Because there’s no rigorous scientific definition of what consciousness is, and you can’t even just roughly point to it, just like most quasi-sciences it’s all up for debate.

From my perspective, the only people questioning whether or not non-humans have consciousness are coming from a religious perspective trying to reconcile their cognitive dissonance

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#324
post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you ever watch a movie/event or listen to music and notice you're not internally narrating what's happening because you're so engrossed in the action? Voila, consciousness without the inner monologue.

In one way, that sounds like more consciously present, in the other way it sounds like less. You are more here and now as you lack distracting commentary, or are you more here if you sit and ponder it?

The fact it's possible to not ponder shows consciousness doesn't depend on pondering.

I can't see how distracting yourself with something else (thoughts) could make you more conscious.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#325
post #194

I can't say this is backed by anything, i don't know, but my gut feel is humans are somewhat different in that they have developed language both spoken and written to such an extent, that now there is a constant journaller as part of most people's minds documented everything we do, feel, think. This journaller basically happens autonomously, without direction. This journalling mechanism, i think, is what most people…

I definitely don't have an inner voice. I certainly can "enable it", for things such as composing this reply. But in general I'd describe it as a stream of thought, not bound to any language. Then when I need to actually communicate I "pipe" it through whatever language I need (I grew up in a home with multiple languages, don't know if that influences it). One way I notice this is how thoughts are generally unpacked…

I'm the same but I tend to remember very precisely what people say. My partner is the opposite and yeah it's frustrating as hell especially when I'm being misquoted from mere minutes ago.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Information is the removal of uncertainty, if it does not remove uncertainty it is not information. Uncertainty is the soft synonym for entropy. Entropy is the distribution of potential over negative potential. It is not that Truth is impossible to find, it is that undeceiving the self is difficult. Undeceive yourself of your own words if you will find something you have not anticipated.

What about if I think I know something and then realize I don't? Didn't I receive information that increased my uncertainty?

When you do a math or logic problem you would intuitively use parentheses, allowing the problem to be split into scopes. Use parentheses in your mind and then regard where uncertainty is increased and where it is decreased.

In nearly every circumstance, new information will generate MORE questions. To the untrained mind this may sound like more uncertainty, however in actuality you did not know what questions to ask until some preliminary uncertainty was resolved.

For one scope, uncertainty is resolved, in doing so new domains are revealed.

Uncertainty (or information for that matter) isn't a lump sum that grows or shrinks. One question is resolved revealing more separate and further uncertainties, which are very specific and reduced from chaotic infinity by some resolve . In this case, realizing you didn't actually know that "something" to begin with.

The tendency to jumble these delicate distinctions into a single glob of unknowns obfuscates otherwise simple (however numerous) truths. And by "truth" I mean, anything consistent with existential reality.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#327

Can they think about the future, are they aware of their mortality? The degree we do seems to fundamentally set us apart.

Memory and intelligence are not the same as consciousness. Yes, we're different in the way that we use our intelligence but it doesn't prove that other beings are without consciousness.

What about humour? Only rats, people and chimps can laugh.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs definitely have Theory of Mind. There was a study done that placed a treat in a room where the dog was instructed not to eat it. A handler was in the room with the dog. When the lights were turned out, the dogs would eat the treat, because they knew that the human couldn't see in the dark.

Or they tried the strategy in the past, and they had learned behavior that by eating things at night, they can get away with it. If you read the methods of this study, they used dogs that lived as pets [1]. 1. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00033...

And how do you think humans acquire a theory of mind other than learning behaviors and figuring out what works and what doesn’t?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#329

I once witnessed a spider controlling a motion activated flood light to catch prey. At first I assumed the flood light in my backyard was just being triggered by the wind, as a spider had built a web in front of the sensor, however I then noticed that the light would turn on even when there wasn’t any wind. Upon closer inspection, I found that the spider had created a singular strand of webbing, thicker than the rest…

Yeah spiders are uniquely smart for their size. I had one using stone and some complicated physics to catch pray (don’t remember exactly the details but was impressed)

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#330

> Attributing consciousness to animals based on their responses was seen as a cardinal sin. The argument went that projecting human traits, feelings, and behaviours onto animals had no scientific basis and there was no way of testing what goes on in animals’ minds. What's always been funny to me about the scientific approach to animal consciousness/emotions/empathy is that in a perfectly rational world the default as…

No, it has been controversial for at least one other major reason discussed in the BBC article and by Anil Seth—-the near equivalence made between language and consciousness that goes back to Descartes. Descartes viewed the body as machinery, the mind as imbued and linked in a nebulous way to the body, but distinct at some fundamental level. This split enabled the behaviorist tradition to dominate animal psychology f…

>the near equivalence made between language and consciousness that goes back to Descartes

more like Aristotle

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