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Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

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Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#321

Post by fennecbutt »

consumer451 wrote: post #92
jeffbee wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and then people act like the flea market is some precious cornerstone of the local culture. In my city there is a flea market that has dozens of freshly stolen bikes every week. There's a fund where people buy back the bikes and reunite them with their owners. Unfortunately, there's no fund supporting violence against these bike thieves.

Violence for property crime is a bit 18th century, no? I've been robbed, and wanted to inflict violence in the heat of the moment, but cooler heads... prison would be fine, and you know, civilized.

I suppose you're yet to realise that violence pretty much underlines everything we do, the whole structure of our society.

Its really unfortunate but it's true, peer through the thin veneer of society and it's just violence.

"It's all violence?" "Always has been"

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#322

Post by fennecbutt »

throwup238 wrote: post #110
consumer451 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence for property crime is a bit 18th century, no? I've been robbed, and wanted to inflict violence in the heat of the moment, but cooler heads... prison would be fine, and you know, civilized.

Prison in the US is hardly civilized.

Prison aka confinement is a form of violence. A lot of people consider "when the good guy hits the bad guy it's not violence" no no, it's still violence.

Restraining someone against their will is a violent act, it's just an acceptable form of violence (that of course I agree with) used by the "Good" to deal with the "bad" (relative terms ofc)

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#323

Post by fastball »

saagarjha wrote: post #317
fastball wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, but I am uncertain how that relates to my point.

Describing prison as "free room and board" is absurd. People are not going there by choice. They are there because we as a society say they should be there, and we pay for that as a society. Every attempt to not do that (e.g. by charging people for the cost they impose on the judicial system) has turned out to be an exploitative nightmare. Are you also upset that people steal and therefore your tax dollars need to go…

I didn't say "free room and board" – you did. You also said that going to prison isn't a choice, but also that I can choose to go to prison whenever I want, so which is it?

Someone in a sister thread suggested sharia law and chopping off hands, so clearly there are other alternatives besides "society pays for prison" and "the criminal pays for prison".

And yes, I am upset that people steal and that this causes more of my tax dollars to go to heightened policing. Why wouldn't I be? Presumably the only people that are not upset about that are criminals and potentially the police.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#324

Post by trolan »

ForOldHack wrote: post #279
PointyDog wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived in Howard County for a year. With the combination of county income tax and affluent property taxes, every service was exceptionally well funded. Having lived in Mountain View & Sunnyvale, CA as well for a decade my experience was Howard County itself had quicker and better services than those cities. It doesn't surprise me at all that their police department is competent and helpful.

You want to go there? Without facts? https://policescorecard.org/md/police-department/howard-coun...

Sunnyvale and Mountainview both score lower

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#325

Post by LorenPechtel »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #298
LorenPechtel wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The optimum risk level is never zero. There comes a point where the cost of averting the risk is greater than the cost of the risk. Consider my standard example of this: electric power. We insist nuclear plants be insanely safe, making them uneconomic, making us use far more dangerous sources of power instead.

The word optimum only makes sense in context of limitations and assumptions, which are subject to change. For the sake of argument, lets assume nuclear power is the safest option available given current technology. That doesnt mean that no improvement is possible and we should reject alternative design that are even cheaper and safer poses no benefit. Just because something is the best choice available to apple doesn…

I'm not saying the situation is inherently static. Rather, it's the most extreme case I'm aware of where the effort to reduce risk actually increases it.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#326

Post by s1artibartfast »

saagarjha wrote: post #318
s1artibartfast wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are lots of preferable situations. The simplest and best is probably if theft was simply viewed as a personal moral failing and looked down on. This is reinforced by shaming and is how it works in high trust societies. Other options include making sure people have enough success that they have something material to lose from getting caught stealing.

Despite agreeing with you in broad strokes I still don't see this being completely feasible. We should obviously strive for a society where people don't need to steal and don't feel compelled to steal either. That said, even in a much better situation there will still be someone who does it. At some point you really do have to go "investing more resources into this is not productive for society".

Like I said, it depends on the assumptions, but I agree that for most assumptions, there will be some tradeoff and non-zero level of theft occuring.

My main rejection is the idea that the current state is the best possible situation given all possible permutations.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#327

Post by paulmd »

hluska wrote: post #310
paulmd wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

weee wooo weee wooo here comes the tone police! (if only real cops could get that kind of response time/clearance rate!) like that’s just a shitty argument yourself, you lost the argument on the facts so you’re complaining about how the presentation. Lazy argumentation, it’s a way to attack the messenger(‘s presentation) instead of addressing the argument. It’s the highbrow version of “minor spelling mistake!!!!”.

I just asked this question and I’ll ask it again. Why be so combative? You wrote the sound of a siren - that’s overly combative. Fucking chill. This is a website, few of us are politicians and our opinions barely matter.

we are talking about someone getting mad because they didn't like the word "copaganda" getting used in a discussion lol, how is this anything other than a total distraction from the point?

sealioning is right, bringing it up in the first place was a distraction, by design. if you don't want to discuss copaganda, get mad about the fact someone used the word copaganda rather than contradicting its existence or usage.

that's why tone arguments are a logical fallacy - they're an ad-hominem, you're attacking the speaker rather than the argument. it's far too easy to let this all slide into "well I would have agreed with you but now you've gone and offended me with your tone!!!" as a way to slam the door on a discussion you're losing.

as difficult as it is, the mature thing is to simply accept that this is a way that people legitimately feel about cops and their marketing/relations with the public, and that they feel there's very good evidence and backing for it. It's unfortunate that you feel offended, but you can't derail the discussion because of that.

(moreover, the idea that we have to inherently respect the cops as social guardians and blah blah is very much a neoliberal perspective to begin with. minority communities tend not to have such rose-colored perspectives on the issue etc. People who have their property stolen at gunpoint at the roadside by cops tend to have a different perspective too. This is not some universal norm that is violated here.)

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#328

Post by mikrotikker »

consumer451 wrote: post #92
jeffbee wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and then people act like the flea market is some precious cornerstone of the local culture. In my city there is a flea market that has dozens of freshly stolen bikes every week. There's a fund where people buy back the bikes and reunite them with their owners. Unfortunately, there's no fund supporting violence against these bike thieves.

Violence for property crime is a bit 18th century, no? I've been robbed, and wanted to inflict violence in the heat of the moment, but cooler heads... prison would be fine, and you know, civilized.

It's not just property theft. It's the victimisation and predation of a community.

Violence is a universal language that the predators can understand innately.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#329

Post by jorvi »

kbos87 wrote: post #158
segmondy wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. Since there's less crime in affluent areas, the police actually have time to investigate what get's ignored in other areas. By also solving these crimes, it tells the criminals to avoid those areas, it's kind of a feedback loop.

I'll offer a counterpoint - I live in a nice building in a bit of a rougher part of a major city. I've learned that the police do show up thankfully, but it takes a very long time unless there's literally a life on the line. (Which, I know, is better than some other major cities.) The couple of times I've interacted with them, it's been painfully obvious to me that they feel like they need to put on a performance for…

There is a very simple hack to that: tell the police that you think you saw the perpetrator and are going to beat the hell out of them.

The same thing works with stolen goods tracked via AirTags: the police will almost laugh in your face when you request their help with retrieving the gear, but if you call the police (not 911) and tell them you are about to confront the thief in a physical altercation, they’ll be there within five minutes.

Re: Carpenter's AirTags help uncover 'massive' case of stolen tools in Maryland

#330

Post by mandmandam »

WalterBright wrote: post #300
mandmandam wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Code of Hammurabi has more in it about protecting property than people, so... Also, you've conflated 'enforcement of the law' with 'the law protects property more than people'. Why? For most of history the people with the power to create and enforce laws were also the people with the most property. This isn't some big mystery.

And yet it did include protecting people. That old "eye for an eye", for example.

You seem to have some trouble keeping track of goalposts; even when people are pointing right at them.
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