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"No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

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Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#321

Post by unkulunkulu »

pdimitar wrote: post #214
flohofwoe wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The C sphere is actually refreshingly free of zealotry (mainly I guess because there isn't such a thing as a "C community" and even despite C being the main attack target of language zealots - funny enough nobody complains about those pesky assembly coders and their hippie attitude towards memory safety lol). The "religious zeal" was also an important reason why I switched back to C from C++ and why I don't have much…

> This was an important reason why I switched back to C from C++ and why I don't have much interest in Rust. I can't quite stand the the "holier than thou" attitude in.parts of those communities. This is 100% baffling to me. Let me explain. 1. Every single area has zealots. Yours included. And we're not talking only work. Every hobby area as well. 2. What the attitude of the most toxic 0.1% of the users of a thing is…

As a supposed adult you should be ok with the fact that not everyone will like your favorite toy and way of life.

I don’t use rust because I don’t have enough time in my life right now for discovering a new language just for the pleasure of it and even if I had, my real alternatives would be functional languages, not rust vs C++ which I use daily in a big project that has incentives stacked into C++ favor

Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#322

Post by p_l »

l33t7332273 wrote: post #293
p_l wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice I found C/C++ "manual memory management" fans to know surprisingly little about memory management, or even how much manual memory management costs them in performance. High end games programming sometimes knocks the love of malloc()/free() (and naive RAII) out of them.

What does knowing a lot about memory management look like? Is it like being familiar with heap allocation, the structure of fastbins and co., and some knowledge of lifetime and ownership?

In addition to that, also knowing at least basics (a bit like "classes of algorithms") of automated memory management, memory pooling, understanding and using the knowledge of allocation and mutation patterns in one's program.

A funny story related to all that from one of my previous jobs includes a high performance C++ code base that used forking to utilize preloaded code and data and to easily clean up after itself.

Turned out that naive-ish (even with jemalloc dropped in) memory management in C++ code resulted in latency spikes not because of allocation/freeing, but because they put no control over where things got allocated which resulted in huge TLB and pagetable thrashing as copy-on-write got engaged after forking.

To the point that using something like Ravenbrook's Memory Pool System (a GC) with threads quite possible would let them hit performance targets better.

Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#323

Post by jstimpfle »

tialaramex wrote: post #284
jstimpfle wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're focusing on the memory model. To which I'll say, it's not the language but it's the _machines_ that have SMP so effects will be visible out of order. The machines provide you with escape hooks to serialize read and write effects, and the language must give you access to these hooks because if the language opts to keep up the illusion of all sequential effects even in the face of SMP, it has to do so by seri…

> which is going to be incredibly slow. "Faster but wrong" isn't really faster it's just wrong. > That code doesn't appear to be sequential from other threads is not the language's fault. It's just a fact of reality. What other threads? In a sequential programming language we certainly can't have "other threads". > You can still write "sequential programs" like it's K&R. "You can just not use the bits you don't like"…

With all 3 of these quotes and replies I feel completely misunderstood. I'm not at all trying to say the things that you're contradicting with. Won't engage anymore, but maybe you can reevaluate.

Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#324

Post by jstimpfle »

p_l wrote: post #130
Xeamek wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What projects need manual memory management Games. Big/specialiased games to be precise, as for smaller projects managed language offer good enough performance.

In practice I found C/C++ "manual memory management" fans to know surprisingly little about memory management, or even how much manual memory management costs them in performance. High end games programming sometimes knocks the love of malloc()/free() (and naive RAII) out of them.

In practice I find malloc()/free() mentioned almost exclusively by GC proponents. I don't know any "manual memory management" fans but only people who think that GC is worse than fully designing a memory management scheme for data-intensive applications. And these people shy away from using malloc(), because it is 1) slow/unpredictable (and yes, slower than GC allocation) 2) A general purpose allocator, which gives us little control 3) requires to match every call with a corresponding free(), which is tedious and error prone.

Note also that with (tracing) GC, you not only pay for the cost of allocation, but also pay for the time your allocated objects live.

Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#325

Post by tialaramex »

nullc wrote: post #279
tialaramex wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't buy it. Rust has a really good track record on attracting more people to read and modify the code, which isn't what you want if you're hiding backdoors in the code. In decades of writing C (sometimes as a hobby, often for a lot of money) I'd guess I thought "These errors when I wrote bugs in my program are crap, somebody should fix it" maybe once per month on average. But a C compiler is very intimidating cod…

I'm not sure how modifying the compiler is relevant to the point. I think it's the general trend that early in languages lives its much easier to contribute to the tools, after decades of amassing improvements (such as yours!) they tend to become less accessible. But regardless, the "rewrite in rust" advocacy has created a significant opportunity for projects created by single people, without outside review and often…

The compiler is illustrative. A large piece of Rust software, nevertheless easier to read and contribute to when compared to similar software in the same category.

Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#326

Post by p_l »

jstimpfle wrote: post #324
p_l wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice I found C/C++ "manual memory management" fans to know surprisingly little about memory management, or even how much manual memory management costs them in performance. High end games programming sometimes knocks the love of malloc()/free() (and naive RAII) out of them.

In practice I find malloc()/free() mentioned almost exclusively by GC proponents. I don't know any "manual memory management" fans but only people who think that GC is worse than fully designing a memory management scheme for data-intensive applications. And these people shy away from using malloc(), because it is 1) slow/unpredictable (and yes, slower than GC allocation) 2) A general purpose allocator, which gives u…

Then you have a pretty nice bubble (this is not in jest, I honestly envy you).

A more nuanced take is that I can, in practice, map considerable chunk of developers I met and their understanding of memory as:

"it's magic" > "manual memory management rulz! my C/C++/Rust will be always better than GC" >>> people who actually studied automatic memory management a bit >> people who adjust memory management techniques to specific use cases

The fall off is pretty much exponential in amount of people, which I will admit does make some people defensive thanks to second group being both numerically big and undying because programmers suck at educating new generations. Same can be seen in various other areas, not just GC (though GC links with general trope of "opinions formed from people repeating things learnt from xeroxed half dog eaten copies of notes somewhat relevant on 256kB IBM 5150 PC and Turbo Pascal")

A lot of the time I do encounter people who essentially parrot claims about GC without any understanding of what's happening underneath, and indeed sometimes going about "crazy awesome non-GC solution!" that turns out to call out to whatever malloc()/free() happens to live in libc when I pull the cover and with just as much unpredictability as you can get.

As for paying - allocations in GC systems tend to be blindingly fast, but yes, collection does involve other costs.

Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#327

Post by subjectsigma »

KaiserPro wrote: post #298
subjectsigma wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a furry is and always has been a sex thing for the majority of the fandom. Some furries will vehemently deny this but we have receipts going all the way back to the 1970’s: https://en.wikifur.com/wiki/Vootie Anime is not inherently sexual as a medium but has a well-deserved reputation for being associated with creeps and perverts. Don’t talk about either in professional settings.

> Being a furry is and always has been a sex thing I mean you could argue that about Emos, or Goths. Its not really true. I'm sure sex is a large motivator, but you can't be doing sex all the time. When a Goth is dressed up all Goth-y its not because they are horny right now. They are just wanting to look good. I imagine its the same with the furries, but the difference is, the furries are the butt of most jokes

You can’t just say “No, you’re wrong.” And expect me to change my mind??

Both being a goth and being a furry are about way more than clothing and appearance. Goths don’t really have anything to do with furries. I don’t know why you’re bringing them up.

Every furry I have met in real life thought it was a sex thing. Every normal person from the outside looking in thinks it’s a sex thing. Just look at the history of furry magazines and subculture and it is mind-numbingly obvious that it is a sex thing.

Even if it wasn’t a sex thing, would you want to discuss it at work knowing 99% of people will think of it that way?

Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#328

Post by KaiserPro »

subjectsigma wrote: post #327
KaiserPro wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being a furry is and always has been a sex thing I mean you could argue that about Emos, or Goths. Its not really true. I'm sure sex is a large motivator, but you can't be doing sex all the time. When a Goth is dressed up all Goth-y its not because they are horny right now. They are just wanting to look good. I imagine its the same with the furries, but the difference is, the furries are the butt of most jokes

You can’t just say “No, you’re wrong.” And expect me to change my mind?? Both being a goth and being a furry are about way more than clothing and appearance. Goths don’t really have anything to do with furries. I don’t know why you’re bringing them up. Every furry I have met in real life thought it was a sex thing. Every normal person from the outside looking in thinks it’s a sex thing. Just look at the history of fu…

Oh course its a sex thing, but its also a lifestyle. My colleague is furry adjacent. I don't think they have a fur suit. However the rules and culture of furries are frankly quite fascinating. Like why are most furries dogs(or dog like)? why not camels, birds, monkies or fish?

My point is, there is an entire culture, just like emos, just like goths, and to me, that is fascinating.

So yeah, we do discuss it at work, and no I don't care overly much, because I don't work with 14 year olds.

Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#329

Post by some_furry »

subjectsigma wrote: post #327
KaiserPro wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being a furry is and always has been a sex thing I mean you could argue that about Emos, or Goths. Its not really true. I'm sure sex is a large motivator, but you can't be doing sex all the time. When a Goth is dressed up all Goth-y its not because they are horny right now. They are just wanting to look good. I imagine its the same with the furries, but the difference is, the furries are the butt of most jokes

You can’t just say “No, you’re wrong.” And expect me to change my mind?? Both being a goth and being a furry are about way more than clothing and appearance. Goths don’t really have anything to do with furries. I don’t know why you’re bringing them up. Every furry I have met in real life thought it was a sex thing. Every normal person from the outside looking in thinks it’s a sex thing. Just look at the history of fu…

> You can’t just say “No, you’re wrong.” And expect me to change my mind??

Okay, let me try this then: https://soatok.blog/2021/04/02/the-furry-sexuality-blog-post...

Key argument: What isn't a sex thing?

Re: "No way to prevent this" say users of only language where this regularly happens

#330

Post by darkwater »

subjectsigma wrote: post #327
KaiserPro wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being a furry is and always has been a sex thing I mean you could argue that about Emos, or Goths. Its not really true. I'm sure sex is a large motivator, but you can't be doing sex all the time. When a Goth is dressed up all Goth-y its not because they are horny right now. They are just wanting to look good. I imagine its the same with the furries, but the difference is, the furries are the butt of most jokes

You can’t just say “No, you’re wrong.” And expect me to change my mind?? Both being a goth and being a furry are about way more than clothing and appearance. Goths don’t really have anything to do with furries. I don’t know why you’re bringing them up. Every furry I have met in real life thought it was a sex thing. Every normal person from the outside looking in thinks it’s a sex thing. Just look at the history of fu…

What about good-looking people that enjoy it and dress more "provocative"? Reading some news with people in the gym or on a red-carpet is NSFW as well?
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