Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software • Hacker News Board

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#321

Post by tomjakubowski » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:13 PM UTC

eddd-ddde wrote: post #286

ravenstine wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a level or two down from the abstraction of company size, crafting hobbies are also a reprieve from the tyranny of linters. So many programmers today believe that code is always better when it all looks identical. Consistency is a good thing, but not when it's expected to be absolute. Programming should actually allow for creativity, and where you decide to add spaces and newlines can actually add subtle but impor…

> the tyranny of linters This is a take I don't think I've seen before. Is someone actually mad prettier is changing their single quotes to double quotes? Are they mad some line is breaking at some word? Certainly I've never been. I use linters / formatters even when I'm working solo because the mere concept of having to think where to break lines is meaningless disruption from the actual goals I have. If you _really…

Strict adherence to formatting rules can impair readability, yes.

Before back-tick strings in JS, it was useful to employ both single/double quotes for strings -- you'd use one most of the time, and then if you needed to embed a bunch of that quotation mark in a string literal, you'd switch to the other one.

    'my string'
    'my other string'
    "insert values ('foo', 'bar', 'baaz')"

A formatter with naive "single quotes only" rule would obliterate the last one to:

    'insert values (\'foo\', \'bar\', \'baz\')'

unless you remember, before you hit save, to add a directive like:

    // linter pwease preserve my qwotes

I still use linters and formatters every day, and on balance I think they're good to have, but it's ridiculous to pretend they don't have downsides, or that there isn't room for the occasional dash of human intervention in the automation; hence, the linters which have // linter pwease directives.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#322

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:14 PM UTC

beryilma wrote: post #282

ryandrake wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Code is not art, it's instructions. This is one of the major differences between hobby programming and work programming. When you're writing code as a hobby, it can be anything you want: code can be art, instructions, math, beauty, a means to an end, an experiment... At work, code must ultimately be a tool that creates profit. It has to be manageable, consistent, and boring.

It is a mistaken idea that work programming is or must be boring. I think you might mean "boring" as opposed to unnecessarily "creative" or complicated. But not all work code is boring, boiler-plate code.

I think of "boring" in this context the same way my dentist calls me a nice, boring patient. He means no surprises for either of us, nothing out of the ordinary, just a mouth in good shape with maybe a cavity or two.

That's how I like to see code. I don't want to struggle to figure out what you're trying to do. I want to be able to read your code and understand it easily and get on with what I need to do.

The opposite of this, keeping the medical context, would be the orthopedic surgeon who was so excited about how badly my then 25-year-old wife had smashed her wrist. "I never see this much joint damage in someone so young. It's incredible." Not words you want to hear from a doctor!

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#323

Post by digging » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:16 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #270

digging wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possible, but unlikely today. I think the advice being converged on is not to let the possibility of 100% enjoyment ruin one's actual, real-life situation. Attain it if you can, but don't spend your life rueing its absence.

It's more so true today than ever before, where there are more companies than ever willing to consider allowing software developers, and some other kinds of knowledge workers, to work any where in the world. It gives you more opportunities to find that combination of work you find meaningful, coworkers you mesh with, flexibility, and decent compensation, than any other time in history I'm aware of. It's still not eas…

I completely agree. As you stay, it's still not easy, especially in the post-ZIRP economy. Do I deserve to work with a team of interesting people, on a product I can be proud of, on a team that gives me flexible work hours? I sure do. But finding it is a big challenge for me, so I'm still going to celebrate the freedoms my current job gives me until I can find the right one.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#324

Post by _yb2s » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:17 PM UTC

parpfish wrote: post #271

JKCalhoun wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sure can name a lot of friends that consume: mainly gaming and streaming. Has the curve on the creator/consumer axis shifted in recent times or has it always been skewed toward consuming? Or is there instead a social axis that has been waning recently? I'm thinking of the once popular Bridge card game or bowling leagues as examples...

One of my theories is that the internet and socialmedia exposes everybody to examples of elite talents and raises the bar too much for performance based hobbies. Playing the piano poorly can be a fun and worthwhile hobby even if you’ll never be as good as the people you see online. And then there a collecting based hobbies* which have been ruined by being able buy rare things from anywhere in a click. Now getting a s…

I found my enjoyment of a hobby goes way up if I just do it, and don't talk about it online, document/photograph it, or follow people online doing it better than me (unless I am learning a specific technique from them, e.g. watching a how-to video).

Social media totally shifts and ruins our experience of things: it becomes a performance to impress others rather than actually fun itself.

Once I realized that- I realized the people everyone envies online aren't even having fun, or actually enjoying the hobby. That person doing extreme camping on Instagram with the most glamorous photos: it's 100% fake. They're lugging camera equipment to remote places, and likely bringing a professional paid photographer. They probably tore it all down and slept in a hotel after setting up camp for the photo.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#325

Post by hn_version_0023 » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:18 PM UTC

whb101 wrote: post #320

sukruh wrote: post #35

Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…

This comment hits the crux of what OP was really getting at. It's not that software itself is an inherently bad trade; it's what's been happening to it and why. > very happy at a fast-growing small tech company where one can have honest conversations about the customer and the product Right. Why is this getting harder to find? Engineers are feeling like their labor is increasingly becoming unimpactful vaporware; thei…

I’m going to seize on one phrase:

  people, including many software engineers themselves, view software engineers as natural resources

I’ve said this a million times on this forum.. the little trick whereby people who were once employees became merely _human resources_ has done more to damage work-life in this world than anything else I can think of.

Its natural to exploit resources to their fullest. Labeling humans as resources is inherently dehumanizing and desperately needs to end.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#326

Post by lolinder » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:18 PM UTC

throw0101b wrote: post #301

skeeter2020 wrote: post #290

Nothing destroys your love of a hobby, even one that you are passionately (or even obsessively) dedicated to, like making it your job. I LOVE riding bikes but all the BS of working in software is preferable to trying to support my love of bikes within the broader industry of bikes. The word "amateur" has negative connotations, but should really be interpreted as "not your primary pay cheque", not that you suck.

> The word "amateur" has negative connotations, but should really be interpreted as "not your primary pay cheque", not that you suck. The negative connotations is a more recent development: > The meaning "one who cultivates and participates (in something) but does not pursue it professionally or with an eye to gain" (as opposed to professional) is from 1786; often with disparaging suggestions of "dabbler, dilettante,…

> How well one does it does not necessarily come into consideration, as long as there is enjoyment.

Indeed, the Olympics is technically supposed to be an event for amateurs, while also being generally perceived as the peak of competition for each relevant sport.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#327

Post by irrational » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:20 PM UTC

sukruh wrote: post #35

Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…

I like the big companies because I can be paid a hefty six figure salary while working 4 hour days and spending the rest of the hours doing woodworking, gardening, home remodeling, baking, exercising, reading, etc.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#328

Post by andoando » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:22 PM UTC

colecut wrote: post #247

_yb2s wrote: post #239

I don't understand why more adults don't have awesome hobbies... most of my childhood friends don't seem to do anything fun now as adults. I really love physical things I can do with my body as a counterbalance to working on the computer- weight lifting, woodworking, and sailing add a lot of value to my life, and have gotten me outdoors and in shape. I'm currently building a wood sailboat in my garage together with m…

If you inherited woodworking tools from your grandfather, I'm assuming that either your grandfather or father taught you some woodworking skills? I grew up on the computer since I was a preteen. My dad moved 2000 miles away when I was 11. Every job I've ever had since I was 14 was web/software related and I am nearly 39. I feel like I have no practical skills outside of computers and the idea of building things with…

You can always learn new things on your own. It's really not hard, you just have to try.

I mean hell there's plenty you can do that doesn't require learning at all.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#329

Post by sukruh » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:28 PM UTC

AdrianB1 wrote: post #163

usrnm wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with doing a boring job for a lot of money and then getting all the fun elsewhere? This actually seems to be the best way to do it to me

In corporations is not a lot of money, almost never the market rates. In my big non-IT company I am paid at rates lower than any external company we contract for projects, even if their people are always lower qualified. Also there is the problem of having to deal every day with "professional managers" that don't know anything about IT, but make decisions based on magic 8 ball and their career interests. Similar to i…

If you were comparing what the other company was charging your company for their developers: Labor and software services have different markets. Because, among other things, tax/insurance regulations and the expectations of contract longevity are not the same. A software shop needs to charge 2-3x salaries to be profitable. I was referring to a theoretical free market for labor.

If you were comparing salaries, either your company was compensating you with extra prestige, job security, etc. or you were underpaid.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#330

Post by WillAdams » Fri, May 03, 2024, 4:28 PM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #284

WillAdams wrote: post #138

Interestingly, Glenn Reid also escaped from making software (Touchtype.app, PasteUp.app, wrote "The Green Book", _PostScript Language Program Design_) to making dovetail joined furniture by hand. That said, I've always described the "Maker" movement as "Geeks who missed shop class", and have argued that the world would be a better place if the Sloyd system of woodworking as a basic constituent of education was preval…

Isn't it more Geeks who enjoyed shop class, but went into software because it paid more? (I'm the Geek who hated shop class, and thank my locking stars I can make a living writing software, decades later.)

No, given the naïveté with which "Makers" approach things, they don't seem to have had real shop-class experience, or at least not a sensible class which actually taught anything meaningful.