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Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

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Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#321

Post by Retric »

gnicholas wrote: post #295
SECProto wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All electricity generation throughout the US is subsidized in various ways already - eg low interest loans for new generation capacity, programs for low income earners, not (or not effectively) charging for carbon and methane emissions, low fuel taxes on sources used for electricity generation. The "subsidies" you list help make a desirable energy source compete on a more level playing field - matching benefits that…

My understanding is that when utilities buy energy from solar farms, they do so based on the demand and available supply, meaning that solar farms get paid more or less depending on these factors. But with net metering for residential solar installations, utilities are buying independent of supply/demand, which gives the residents a subsidy even vis-a-vis other solar producers. I understand that all kinds of energy p…

Most US solar farms have a power purchase agreement that’s independent of real time market prices. Solar farms agree because being paid 2c/kWh or whatever for the first X years guarantees they can repay all loans. Utilities agree because it’s guaranteed to save them money.

Those power purchase agreements then makes it really easy to get loans.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#322

Post by gnicholas »

SECProto wrote: post #315
gnicholas wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that when utilities buy energy from solar farms, they do so based on the demand and available supply, meaning that solar farms get paid more or less depending on these factors. But with net metering for residential solar installations, utilities are buying independent of supply/demand, which gives the residents a subsidy even vis-a-vis other solar producers. I understand that all kinds of energy p…

There are all kinds of complications - commercial solar isn't dispatchable so it does tend to get lower rates than most other sources. In my jurisdiction residential (net metering) customers are only allowed to install a certain numbers of panels - corresponding with household energy consumption and assumed production levels (i.e. your monthly bill will never be negative - at lowest you'll be paying distribution char…

> Paying them nothing would be even more unfair (and that's the only option available where I am at least - net metering or no household generation)

I wasn't suggesting this. The phased rollback of net metering in California (the state mentioned in my original parent comment as "attacking" solar installation) means that solar owners will still get paid, just not as much as before. I'm sorry that you live somewhere that this middle option isn't available — the two extremes are indeed less fair!

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#323

Post by bluGill »

aidenn0 wrote: post #156

Anyone know what sort of electrical requirements there are for these? We currently have a gas furnace and gas range. My electrical panel is full (we used up the last of it installing 220V for the clothes dryer), and the furnace is on the opposite side of the house from the electric panel, under a different roofline. I'm going to at some point get an electrician in to look at things and see what the options are, but m…

If you have AC, this replaces the AC and so uses that breaker. If you don't have AC you need space for a breaker in the panel - but this is easy to get (add a sub panel - $500)

The real question is what kind of service you have. If the power company cannot deliver enough power then you need more power and this will cost you at best $4000 to replace your panel, and could be in the tens of thousands depending on what your power company wants.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#324

Post by burkaman »

nostrademons wrote: post #301
burkaman wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's now more expensive to fuel a vehicle with electricity than gas This is very hard to believe, what are you paying for electricity? California gas prices are also way above the national average at the moment. Here's a per-state comparison from last year, I'm sure it's a bit out of date but I doubt things have completed flipped in a single year: https://energyinnovation.org/2023/07/27/ev-fill-up-savings/

PG&E is 62 cents/kwh for peak rate above-baseline, I believe 52 cents/kwh for off-peak (which most EV charging would be). Gas prices where I'm at are around $4.20/gal. I ran the numbers for my Mazda CX-90 PHEV SUV, which gets about 1.7 mi/kwh on electric and about 23 mpg gas. It's about 30 cents/mile on electric and about 18 cents/mile on gas. For this tank only I have been charging at home (and at work, and anywhere…

I see what you're saying, that makes sense for that vehicle. I think pure EVs tend to get about twice as many miles per kWh as your car, so for an average pure EV compared to an average pure ICE I think the EV is still cheaper to fill up, although it is pretty close with these prices.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#325

Post by CaliforniaKarl »

giobox wrote: post #292
bluGill wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All modern furnaces I've seen take #2 - use air from outside. Despite that they can get to 99% efficient. It doesn't take much energy to heat up that cold air.

My experience in the US at least is that its not uncommon for the furnace air intake to draw air from inside the house (my last two homes in PNW as one example).

The furnace my parents (who live in Ohio) installed 10+ years ago uses outside air for combustion, not conditioned inside air. As it's older, it's not got a 99 AFUE, but it's high (I think in the low 90s).

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#326

Post by TheSoftwareGuy »

bagels wrote: post #214
mdasen wrote: post #174

One of the big problems with heat pumps in New England is that our electricity costs 1.7x the US average ( https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... ). If you're in the South, a heat pump makes perfect sense. You're going to want AC anyway and it'll be way more efficient and save a ton of money when you want heat. In most of the country, even if it gets cold your electricity prices are still a t…

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Or, they could increase the price of natural gas (perhaps using a tax)

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#327

Post by CaliforniaKarl »

mullingitover wrote: post #228
bagels wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the heat pump will reduce energy use to maybe 1/3 of a gas furnace, but natural gas is something like 6x cheaper for the same amount of energy, so it is an expensive folly. If California is serious about this, they need to reign in the utilities to reduce prices and or stop the attacks on solar installation.

Southern Cali resident here: I got a mini split system installed a couple years back, and last year's eye-popping surprise gas bill inspired me to start running it backward for heat instead of using the furnace. Pricewise, it's actually a wash. My electric bill went up by about $100 a month, whereas during the winter my gas bill was running about $100 a month to run the furnace (aside from that one random $600 bill o…

Thank you for posting that. Although the cost of electricity is important, when deciding on using a heat pump for heat, the big question is the cost of electricity for heating, relative to the cost of the fuel you are already using (natural gas, propane, oil, etc.).

It's definitely annoying to calculate! Since a heat pump's efficiency can vary with the outside temperature, it takes a bit of work to estimate your potential added electricity cost.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#328

Post by bluGill »

giobox wrote: post #292
bluGill wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All modern furnaces I've seen take #2 - use air from outside. Despite that they can get to 99% efficient. It doesn't take much energy to heat up that cold air.

My experience in the US at least is that its not uncommon for the furnace air intake to draw air from inside the house (my last two homes in PNW as one example).

That used to be very common in the US, and there are a lot of old systems still working. However every new furnace I've seen is installed to use outside air. Using outside air needs $100 more in parts and labor and it prevents air balance issues in modern well sealed houses.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#329

Post by nostrademons »

burkaman wrote: post #324
nostrademons wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PG&E is 62 cents/kwh for peak rate above-baseline, I believe 52 cents/kwh for off-peak (which most EV charging would be). Gas prices where I'm at are around $4.20/gal. I ran the numbers for my Mazda CX-90 PHEV SUV, which gets about 1.7 mi/kwh on electric and about 23 mpg gas. It's about 30 cents/mile on electric and about 18 cents/mile on gas. For this tank only I have been charging at home (and at work, and anywhere…

I see what you're saying, that makes sense for that vehicle. I think pure EVs tend to get about twice as many miles per kWh as your car, so for an average pure EV compared to an average pure ICE I think the EV is still cheaper to fill up, although it is pretty close with these prices.

It's not really the pure EV vs. hybrid factor, it's the weight. The CX-90 is a really big (5200 lbs) 8-seater. Hence why its gas mileage is only about 23. It's also very heavily terrain & road dependent, eg. for roads with lots of stop signs in the hills, I get 0.6 mi/kwh or 8 mpg, but for flat highway driving it's about 3.0 mi/kwh or 40 mpg.

A typical EV would get more like 4 mi/kwh, but then, the equivalent ICE car would get more like 35 mpg. The delta's a little bit closer because of peculiarities of the CX-90's powertrain, but not a whole lot.

Re: Nine US states are teaming up to accelerate the adoption of heat pumps

#330

Post by Jochim »

wongarsu wrote: post #314
what_ever wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is net metering a subsidy?

If few people use net metering it's kind of fair. Your solar installation generates electricity, any excess gets delivered to your neighbors. The electricity is providing the infrastructure for that without making any money on that specific transaction (it gets deducted from your meter and added to your neighbors' meter), but that's easy enough to account for in base fees. The issues start if too many people do net m…

> Prices can go close to zero if lots of solar and wind capacity is available

Negative prices aren't uncommon during quiet periods in the summer.

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