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Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

prospectmagazine.co.uk

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Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#321

Post by asystole »

vlovich123 wrote: post #279
asystole wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already have this. It's called bitcoin. For offline payments, there's physical devices like opendime and potentially Chaumian mints like cashu.

opendime is a one time use bearer bond that costs ~$10 per device. It cannot be used like cash - you have to transfer the full amount - and it can break much more easily than cash. cashu is still online and its anonymity claims should be taken as suspect given that no cryptocurrency has managed to achieve it in practice. So to summarize: Bitcoin only really works online, offline equivalents are more fragile and can’t…

Maybe this is pedantry, but opendime isn't really one-time use. It's designed to be passed between people many times and spent on-chain once. There's also satscard (from the same company) which has 10 unique "slots" so can be spent on-chain multiple times.

>offline equivalents are more fragile and can’t be used for the same use cases as cash, and anonymity continues to lag physical cash

OK, no argument there.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#322

Post by IshKebab »

Alifatisk wrote: post #259
IshKebab wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring cash because the vendor does not accept card. (Not actually true since basically everyone accepts card in the UK, but it illustrates that your point makes no sense.)

> Not actually true since basically everyone accepts card in the UK, but it illustrates that your point makes no sense So you tried to prove me wrong by giving a made up example?

The fact that my example is not really true is a stronger argument against you, not weaker.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#323

Post by dazc »

fundad wrote: post #315
ghaff wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

90% of the people I'm paying are businesses. If an individual wants cash they can ask and I'll pay cash. I wouldn't just assume someone prefers everyone to be paying them in cash or screwing around with various electronic payment options that aren't super-common where I live.

My house cost $240 to clean. Handing around fat envelopes like a wise guy is a macho dream but not practical.

The argument was for electronic payment against cheques.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#324

Post by EasyMark »

Kiro wrote: post #282
Alifatisk wrote: post #33

I believe once we go fully cashless, we'll regret it and wish we could go back. I can barely enjoy a full day without being required to bring my phone / debit card with me because the register does not accept cash.

I doubt it. The Nordics have been cashless for a long time and the personal inconvenience in the transition was essentially none. It went by pretty much unnoticed and I don't think many people miss cash or wants to go back. Now I am against a cashless society for other reasons, mainly ideological, but claiming it's less convenient feels odd.

The nordics will not always be a democracy (same for every country/people), then they will regret it. That may be 10 years from now or 200 years from now.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#325

Post by ACS_Solver »

alkonaut wrote: post #301
_xivi wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really don't like cash and am happy to see it basically dead in the country. What would you do in case of a emergency or natural distaster? Basically a situation where any of the following is not available for any period of time: power, network, financial infrastructure, access to digital devices. 1. On personal level: Maybe your wallet and phone was stolen 2. Region: Power/Network is down 3. National level: the…

This is a real concern, but even if I keep cash for use in an emergency, stores and banks would also need to be prepared to handle cash in an emergency and I doubt they are today (since no one uses cash). Telling people they need to use a less convenient payment method only to keep it alive for an emergency also seems doomed to fail. The correct solution is probably to force banks and critical stores to always accept…

> That’s another one of those US-isms that blow peoples minds: that dollar bills of any age are legal tender.

That's not so impressive when the National Bank of Sweden for instance is legally obliged to exchange any banknotes it issued for current ones, regardless of their age. You can theoretically get current money in exchange for a 17th century obligation or certificate issued by the bank, though even early 20th century notes are worth more as collection items than their nominal value.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#326

Post by retwertett »

satellite2 wrote: post #133
thaumasiotes wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The central bank's knowledge isn't relevant in any way. The value of the currency goes up because the willingness of people to spend it went down. You can't spend money that doesn't exist, so this effect will occur regardless of anyone's knowledge of anything.

I don't really understand your comment. Generally it's accepted that the value went up because it became more rare as the number of unit went down. Or similarly because if all the money represents the price of everything in the economy, as there is less money and assuming that everything in the economy didn't change, then everything has now a slightly lower price.

Really interesting discussion guys. I recommend this short essay by F.A.Hayek on how prices are discovered. https://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/hykKnw.html

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#327

Post by seszett »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #232
seszett wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - you take that cash immediately to a vending machine or supermarket auto-checkout that takes notes. The machine scans all notes it ingests and can match them to timings and purchase details. I can tell you they don't do that, at least for the systems I know in Europe. And for manual systems obviously the cashier doesn't record serials and match them to transactions.

I'd love to hear more about what you know about the systems you've examined or designed. PM me at cybershow.uk and we might do an episode and bring in some other engineers too. Specifically can you prove (or give compelling anecdotes why) the linear CCD array used to determine the legitimacy of the note cannot, on internet connected machines, retain and store that scan? I know that's a tall order, because I'm asking…

I haven't designed such a system and as you say I can't really prove anything, but the embedded software I worked on just didn't record anything like that. Of course one can always imagine a secret government firmware or whatever, it's just highly unlikely IMO.

The most obvious proof I'd say is that there is no law mandating this, so nobody is going to bother doing it just for fun.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#328

Post by caldarons »

happytiger wrote: post #148

Not using cash means someone gets a cut of a processing fee. Every time, with almost no exceptions. I’m not down to have rent seeking companies taking a slice of my hard earned money just so I don’t have to manage a few pieces of paper. You’re generally paying 3-4 percent of every transaction now, as that’s pretty standard for debit cards on businesses, and it doesn’t matter if it’s charged to the card holder or the…

maybe we should start thinking of payment infrastructure as a core public service if we move away from cash? Just like there is an official entity that can "print" cash, we should start doing the same with digital payments (I believe the EU is doing somethig similar). That way you don't have a duopoly taking a cut of every transaction.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#329

Post by alkonaut »

_xivi wrote: post #319
alkonaut wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a real concern, but even if I keep cash for use in an emergency, stores and banks would also need to be prepared to handle cash in an emergency and I doubt they are today (since no one uses cash). Telling people they need to use a less convenient payment method only to keep it alive for an emergency also seems doomed to fail. The correct solution is probably to force banks and critical stores to always accept…

> Telling people they need to use a less convenient payment method only to keep it alive for an emergency also seems doomed to fail. Who said that? Certainly not me Personally, I'm not advocating for cash. I just think it's stupid to brag about eliminating cash while putting all your savings and trust in a fragile system and infrastructure . There's nothing revolutionary about that. People should have options and bac…

I meant that (Telling people to use cash more to keep the system afloat) would be one potential solution to the problem, but not one I think would work.

I think people should not have to use cash, and I certainly won’t. But I do think society must have a resilient payment system - even if only as backup.

Re: Physical cash is dying–and you don't need to be a conspiracist to worry

#330

Post by david2ndaccount »

The issues with physical currency are almost entirely self-inflicted. Governments should retire the smallest denominations and introduce larger coins/bills. In the US, all of the coins are worth so little that the only practical coin is the rare half-dollar. Retire all of those worthless coins, require transactions be rounded to the nearest half-dollar or dollar, and issues with physical currency for the user will go away.

Now of course, the government won’t do this as they want physical currency to be inconvenient so they can track you and deny you access to your own money when they find it convenient. We’re in an era of growing authoritarianism. Hopefully we survive this one.

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