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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#321

Post by mistermann »

dang wrote: post #125
mistermann wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This follows from HN's core principle* because curiosity and battle can't be active at the same time. Does HN have a policy against epistemic soundness in claims? Because if there is a method that is maximally useful for these sorts of issues, it is disciplined epistemology. Yet, I know of no explicit policy on it, but I have been subjected to scolding for practicing it, suggesting there is an implicit policy, at l…

I'm afraid I don't understand your comment, nor what you mean by epistemic soundness, but I'm pretty sure HN has no policy against it.

> what you mean by epistemic soundness

This, for starters:

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-epistemic/

You know that word "is" you use now and then? That word is fundamentally based in epistemology.

> and sometimes, suboptimal gameplay results in large quantities of death. Is curiosity about that a good thing?

Do you understand that part?

I will add some clarity: by "suboptimal gameplay", I am referring to the individual and collective behaviour of human beings, as it relates to causality (the consequences of our behaviour).

I am basically asking what HN's stance is on being curious about "large" quantities of (at least plausibly) unnecessary human death.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#322

Post by bitcurious »

adhamsalama wrote: post #308
iddan wrote: post #136

[flagged]

Over 18000 Palestinians were killed, about 70% of them were women and children. Many more under the rubble. 1.9 millions (85% of the population) are displaced. And you're calling people antisemitic (how original) because they care about the massacres and ethnic cleansing Israel is committing against Palestinians (who are in fact Semitic).

>According to the UN, over 150,000 people have been killed in Yemen, as well as estimates of more than 227,000 dead as a result of an ongoing famine and lack of healthcare facilities due to the war.

I think the OP point is why is this the only war being discussed, not that war is victimless.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#324

Post by nonviol »

liorsbg wrote: post #293
qwertthrowway wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think an honest answer would be to end occupation and oppression of the Palestinians by Israel. Any occupying force has an interest to silence and stop indigenous people from claiming their land rights. For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel. This is not what we call “sovereign rule”. The West Bank ha…

In Gaza, all they would have to do is put their weapons down. Blockade and restrictions would lift, and Gaza could be prosperous. In the West Bank, I agree that the settlements are abhorrent and need to be removed.

This is what happened when Gazans tried nonviolent protest:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-03-06/ty-article-ma...

https://archive.ph/vDhPP

I'm not implying that October 7 was justified.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#325

Post by vladgur »

enterprise_cog wrote: post #174
pgeorgi wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. It has to happen in the same time as the agression There are still rockets flying out of Gaza into Israel. > 2. Its only purpose is to defend against the agression The people sending those rockets are in Gaza, so to stop them, Israel has to go there. > 3. The defense has to be proportionate That one is regularly the most difficult point of contention in individual self-defense. Hamas essentially goes by this pla…

[flagged]

Hamas has been shooting rockets at Israel for over a decade, well before October 7, 2023

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#326

Post by truculent »

megaman821 wrote: post #78

Taken in isolation there is nothing wrong with this type of reporting, the IDF should be held to high standards. In the context of the Israeli/Palestine conflict, there is a tendency to hold Israel to a much higher standard and excuse the Palestine side as if they were naive children. I don't see how that could possibly set up any lasting peace. Israel will become more deaf to outsiders, and Palestinians will not be…

> there is a tendency to hold Israel to a much higher standard and excuse the Palestine side as if they were naive children

What “Palestine side”? Hamas? the PA? The civilians, many of whom are actual children, dying in droves?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#327

Post by euzi »

jraby3 wrote: post #7

Just a reminder that Aljazeera is the state sponsored news of Qatar, a county that hosts Hamas leaders and is close allies with Iran. It’s not a valid news source.

This is an association fallacy. Every media outlet has an agenda, journalism has standards and you either point out the flaws or quit untrustworthiness allegations.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#329

Post by shihab »

nahumfarchi wrote: post #155
cassepipe wrote: post #56

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…

Israel absolutely has the right to fight Hamas. But on the question of whether it's really defense vs avenge on entire population, I urge you to go through recent nytimes article titled "Gaza After Nine Weeks of War" with an open mind [1]. Entire neighborhoods has been bombed to rubbles, parks and roads have been bulldozed. Every single civilian structures, hotels, homes, playgrounds, port- on a large stretch beside sea has been utterly destroyed.

That's not a picture of a moral army fighting insurgents embedded in Civilian population, it's the picture of a fight against the entire civilian population- or "mowing the grass" in Israeli military's parlance.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/12/12/world/middlee...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#330

Post by ifdefdebug »

stoorafa wrote: post #171
dubcanada wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel's response tends to stem from a history of oppression which is where it gets touchy. Jewish have not exactly been treated well for most of the 20th century. Not saying that is a reason to invoke that upon someone else, but it tends to be where most thoughts come from. A sense of if we don't do something we'll lose "our" home.

That’s an interesting parallel, Gazan’s response is also borne of a history of oppression. Living with food insecurity, being an intergenerational refugee unable to return to home a few miles away, watching family members harmed, etc seems to motivate a lot of Palestinian behavior.

"being an intergenerational refugee" is one of the most absurd problems that exist in this conflict. Nobody should be a refugee just because their grandparents were. They should be plain citizens of whatever region they were born in.

If we extrapolate this stance to other past conflicts, we'd have today tens of millions of German "intergenerational" refugees sitting in Germany and waiting for their return to their home a few miles away, across the Oder river.

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