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23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

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Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#321

Post by Tyr42 »

dylan604 wrote: post #217
ballenf wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what would happen if someone used one of the public email dumps and automated a mass opt-out of every email ever spotted in the wild.

wow, that's probably one of the most brilliant altruistic ideas I've read since buying other people's medical debt. this is probably why the unsubscribe links require some interactive confirmation so that simply loading the page doesn't actually unsubscribe. if this was doable, i'd put them above Troy Hunt in contributions to humankind ;-)

My unsubscribe likes require a POST request, and have a form on the landing page, but specify the post requirements in the email header.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#322

Post by harry8 »

dekhn wrote: post #163
d2049 wrote: post #21

I would have presumed that security-minded people, which includes those who work in tech, would not so easily give away their genome, and that most of 23andMe's customers are a slice of the general population. But then I read about things like WorldCoin and that people who go to startup parties jump at the chance to give away scans of their retinas and I'm befuddled. Why would anyone willingly do that?

I'm familiar with security (I keep a copy of Applied Cryptography on my shelf for "fun reading") and tech, here's a copy of my whole genome: https://my.pgp-hms.org/profile/hu80855C Note it's a full human genome, far more data than a 23&Me report. You can download the data yourself and try to find risk factors (at the time, the genetic counsellors were surprised to find that I had no credible genetic risk factors). Pl…

> genetic counsellors were surprised to find that I had no credible genetic risk factors

So let's assume you committed to publishing your genome in advance regardless of result. Sounds like you spun the barrel and dry snapped to demonstrate that russian roulette is safe for everybody.

Tell us about how differing views on this to yours would influence opinion about your products you've launched in tech given your extensive experience in human genome analysis. Not at all?

This really may not be a case of being unable to understand something one's paycheck depends on not understanding at all but we can't know that yet.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#323

Post by syndacks »

zlg_codes wrote: post #258
dekhn wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm familiar with security (I keep a copy of Applied Cryptography on my shelf for "fun reading") and tech, here's a copy of my whole genome: https://my.pgp-hms.org/profile/hu80855C Note it's a full human genome, far more data than a 23&Me report. You can download the data yourself and try to find risk factors (at the time, the genetic counsellors were surprised to find that I had no credible genetic risk factors). Pl…

Why do you think people are entitled to have genome data on you? The morality is flipped. Privacy is recognized as a core, natural right. Others have to prove their onus for wanting your biological data. Trusting others is a moral and character weakness, because you have no guarantees as to how that data will be used. Or more specifically, what new ways to analyze and take advantage of that data will become. I think…

Where is it stated exactly that privacy is a core, natural right? Not in the Constitution, though the 4th suggests it. It’s not part of the natural order, I don’t think (most stuff is out in the open). I’m not saying I think privacy is bad or people deserve to have their info out in the open, I just don’t understand why people feel such a right to it, or where governance — natural or man-made — dictates it.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#324

Post by lillecarl »

dylan604 wrote: post #264
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This credit score system in the US always made me curious. Say some point I had a proposition to move to the US and I asked the company offering the job how they will ensure that I immediately get the best possible score. They said it was not possible because it was a personal score. I told them that I will certainly not start to build a credit score at 40 yo so they will have to find someone else.

[flagged]

This seems like the perfect reasoning to build a country upon. The US brain drain was hugely accelerated by WW2 and is in steady decline. Having a system that encourages new people to take out loans/credit just to build a score probably doesn't make it better, don't think that won't affect the US economy long term.

On a single individuals level it doesn't matter ofc, but don't be ignorant towards how that might affect your future if you're young enough to live through brilliant people leaving.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#325

Post by quantified »

6177c40f wrote: post #92
quantified wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What benefit will there be? And why do you assume that it won't be accompanied by negatives? The problem with all tech is that people direct its use, and the sole agent of evil in this world is people.

> What benefit will there be? Knowing your genetic information is currently of limited value for the majority of people, this I admit. I believe that in the future, however, the promise of precision medicine will be realized, and that having one's genetic information readily available will be crucial to receiving the best treatment possible for many diseases. For example, take Crohn's Disease (and other inflammatory…

Yes, you did reference both, and I lost track in my response.

I expect a few relatively wealthy people to get some benefit, for example when they have real health conditions that can be helped by genetic knowledge. I don't expect benefit for the rest. Across the population, some will have net benefit, some will have net drawback, and it would be very easy for the second group to be an order of magnitude larger than the first.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#326

Post by stevehawk »

verve wrote: post #7

To duck out of the new ToS, just write this email to legal@23andme.com-- To Whom It May Concern: My name is [name], and my 23andMe account is under the email [email]. I am writing to declare that I do not agree to the new terms of service at https://www.23andme.com/legal/terms-of-service/ .

fwiw the correct email for this is arbitrationoptout@23andme.com

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#327

Post by xvector »

c7b wrote: post #111
xvector wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a security engineer. When I signed up for 23andme, I assumed with certainty that it would be hacked and all data leaked at some point. I balanced that with the value of knowing potentially important health/genetic bio markers. In the end, I valued knowing these bio markers above the privacy of my genome. The former is actionable and I can use it to optimize my health and longevity; the latter is of vague value a…

In retrospect, how do you so far value the utility of the data you got? Did you take any actions based on them, do you think you will be doing so in the future?

Luckily I had no severe biomarkers. Some minor ones, but nothing I didn't know already. I loved learning about my ancient ancestry, though (ie migratory patterns 300k years ago.)

On balance, was the utility worth the cost (of a breach)? Probably not, because I found no major actionable issues. But if I did find severe biomarkers, it would have been worth it. So I do still think I made the right choice.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#328

Post by blagie »

everforward wrote: post #110
kelthan wrote: post #12

Automatically opting-in customers to a more restrictive TOS is pretty suspect, especially given the timing. IANAL, but I'm pretty sure that a court would not allow that, given that the TOS was changed AFTER the breach and it's pretty clear that the company is trying to avoid legal issues after-the-fact. I would expect the court would evaluate any breach under the TOS that was in effect at the time of the breach, rath…

They ought to be evaluated as if no TOS exists. Given the clear intent to defraud customers by misrepresenting the contract they were bound by, the claims should be evaluated under the TOS most favorable to the plaintiffs. The most favorable TOS is the one that's invalid because 23andMe didn't get anyone to actually agree, ergo the claims are evaluated as if no TOS exists. This is an attempt to undermine consumer pro…

> ABA needs to deal out swift punishment as one of the protectors of that system.

This is part of the legal system. It shouldn't be, but it is. If you can toss a hundred issues the other party has to refute, you drive up legal costs to where litigation is no longer practical. The other side loses by default of not being able to afford litigation.

The ABA is, indeed, one of the protectors of the legal system, and have no vested interested in undermining it. The system means their constituents, lawyers, make more money.

Footnote: The mistake you made is that 23andme isn't undermining the legal system, but rather, justice. The two are not the same.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#329

Post by drcode »

zlg_codes wrote: post #259
drcode wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agree with you here. I can understand why people argue "We must do everything possible that no human being ever finds out anything medical-related about another human being, ever" But that is a value judgement, and I believe it is one that comes at a great cost to society- I wouldn't be surprised if >50% of the cost of medical care is directly or indirectly due to this attitude, and that medical progress has be…

This is disgusting. You want people knowing the maladies they got treated, and how? There's the old saying of knowledge being power. If you want this information about people being spread, then you're advocating having power over these people over that information. It takes very little imagination to see how humans would misuse this data.

it's a tradeoff

I'm disgusting for "people having power over other people", you're disgusting for the graveyard of dead people due to the status quo system.

Re: 23andMe changed its terms of service to prevent hacked customers from suing

#330

Post by happytiger »

skyfaller wrote: post #320
happytiger wrote: post #275

There’s a word for changing the terms after a deal is signed to benefit one party over the other: fraud.

"I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further."

I mean, exactly. Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted for this quote. It’s hilarious.
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