The pro-Israel information war • Hacker News Board

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#321

Post by catlover76 » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

shmatt wrote: post #175

dml2135 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly remember similar sized, if not larger, protests against the Iraq war.

Iraq never attacked anyone. A better comparison is the war in Afghanistan. If we compare # of people in each country. 10/07 for Israel was like 15 9/11s (this is a quote from a President Biden speech). So not only is it worth asking - how many Americans didnt want to fight Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. But how many would be against some sort of war like that, if tomorrow morning they woke up to a 9/11 sized attack in 15 o…

I think your point is pretty cogent, the comparison is not bad. But it suffers from a pretty big flaw in that the US hadn't spent the preceding several decades subjugating Afghanis or encroaching upon their land; didn't have a government whose members and officials openly issued bigoted and racist statements against Afghanis (though I am sure there were a few Congressional Republicans who may have bucked that trend, I don't remember), etc.

US foreign policy isn't nice or morally sound, but one thing it was not doing in the run-up to 9/11 and its subsequent invasion of Afghanistan was directly fucking up Afghani lives and killing Afghani children. Same can't be said for Israel in its relationship to the Palestinians.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#322

Post by underlipton » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

ReptileMan wrote: post #253

Scubabear68 wrote: post #91

I have no skin in this game. What I have seen is a confusion (perhaps intentional) between anti-semitism, and protesting Israel’s behavior since the Hamas attack in October. Criticizing Israel’s response is not anti-Semitism- it is literally just criticizing the response.

>Criticizing Israel’s response is not anti-Semitism- it is literally just criticizing the response. Okay - then what should be Israel's response? For me what they are doing is the bare minimum with the minimum casualties from the options they have. Hamas is Gaza's government. Hamas has intertwined the civilian and the military infrastructure. Hamas has made sure that the civilian Palestinians will suffer if you targe…

>Okay - then what should be Israel's response?

The same response I have concluded should have been the US' response to 9/11: turn the other cheek, and invest heavily in reconciling with "enemy" forces while rebuilding "enemy" infrastructure and institutions, while dealing with individual bad actors on a case-by-case basis as a matter of legal (rather than martial) procedure.

And I'm not joking.

I feel bad for Israelis who have let their government doom them to a generation of government mismanagement and expensive, arduous military adventure. My single-payer health insurance and my friends' free college education went into a couple Patriot missiles, and I do wonder what they're going to have to give up.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#323

Post by valianteffort » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

master_crab wrote: post #13

jdross wrote: post #7

Pro-Palestinian views outrank Pro-Israeli online by around 36 to 1 on TikTok and 8 to 1 on other online platforms. https://twitter.com/antgoldbloom/status/1721561226151612602 If anything the skew within the platforms is to prioritize pro-palestinian views https://twitter.com/committeeonccp/status/173279243496103143... It also seems like these platforms create (rather than support) anti-Israeli views: https://twitter.…

Anti-semitism in and of itself is unequivocally wrong. But conflating anti-Israeli views with anti-Semitic views does a disservice to Jews and Palestinians alike.

The term "anti-semetic" is in and of itself "anti-semetic". It obfuscates the fact that palestinians are true semites by conflating itself with any anti-jewish sentiment or criticism.

The modern israeli's are not semites. Those that settled after WW2 were eastern european converts, khazars, with no genetic ties to the middle east. Those that are not ashkenazi are migrants from the surrounding countries, who largely did not move to the area until after the occupation of palestine.

The term "anti-semite" was invented to reinforce the lie that the ruling class of israel have some ancestral claim to the land. Using it is playing into that propaganda.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#324

Post by ristlane » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

krapp wrote: post #238

ristlane wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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It's the same standard the entire world held the US to after 9/11. A response to the attacks by Al-Qaeda was justified, the 20 year "Crusade" across the Middle East was not. A response by Israel against Hamas terrorism is justified - a campaign of extermination and genocide is not. It isn't even a high standard, "don't commit genocide" has been the bare minimum requirement for any modern country, much less democracy,…

I don’t believe that the IDF wants to kill Gazan civilians.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#325

Post by cies » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:56 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #263

azinman2 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where do you think that comes from? Some coherent well researched culturally deep understanding of history and the current status of things by the entire population? Of course not, it’s propaganda. There are ethnic conflicts worldwide that often have more bloodshed, many occurring simultaneously right now, but this gets all the rhetoric and attention.

I think you're overlooking the fact that it's located in an area that has religious significance for Jews, Christians, and Muslims, which most other conflicts don't. Hundreds of millions of people believe in the idea of a supreme deity who takes a close personal interest in this specific part of the world.

I've long time stopped believing its about religion. Yes, religion is used as greese to get groups of people to "side". But the underlying reasons are --as always-- material.

You think the "red scare" was actually about the commies attacking? No, it was about limiting an alternative economic system == resource control.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#326

Post by rcpt » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

givemeethekeys wrote: post #288

rcpt wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is something particularly grating about how Israel acts with impunity on the world stage yet continues to receive unfaltering support from the US government. They secretly introduced nuclear weapons into the Middle East and refused to sign any of the treaties which are responsible for humanities current existence. According to Snowden the NSA provides them with whatever data they'd like, even that on Americans,…

What would you do if you were running the show in Israel? You’re responsible for a group of people that none of your neighbors want, even if they are the same race, ethnicity and religion, and those people have an ongoing campaign to push you out, which has been unsuccessful for as long as it has been going on. Oh yeah, their population is now many multiples higher than when all this started.

I don't know maybe give me unfettered access to all the NSAs data and I'll get back to you.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#327

Post by nielsbot » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

DevX101 wrote: post #229

Animats wrote: post #57

"That’s where the efforts of J-Ventures’ hasbara WhatsApp group come in. The group, which also includes attorneys and individuals affiliated with the influential American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), has tirelessly worked to fire employees and punish activists for expressing pro-Palestinian views." Is that even legal under US law? Apparently it is in some states. Federal law does not, apparently, prohibit…

AIPAC itself is a result of the President Eisenhower and later Robert F Kennedy (DOJ) demanding the American Zionist Council (AZC) register as foreign agents. Because of this, the AZC rebranded to AIPAC with the same leadership and the issue seemed to have fell off the high priority political radar since. Incidentally, the founder of AIPAC, Isaiah Kenen registered twice with the U.S. Department of Justice under the F…

It was also formed to influence public opinion in the wake of the Israeli massacre at Qibya, which looked pretty bad.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/...

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#328

Post by DiogenesKynikos » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

ReptileMan wrote: post #308

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their response should be to leave the occupied territories, which aren't theirs to begin with, and to recognize a Palestinian state. Israel has held millions of Palestinians under military occupation for more than half a century, and it's way past time that that ended.

[flagged]

Israel has now killed 20k Palestinians and destroyed half of the Gaza Strip. That is a crime of vastly greater proportion.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#329

Post by quonn » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:57 PM UTC

hypeit wrote: post #151

ristlane wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No, when capital coordinates people get worried and rightfully so. There are a lot of non Jewish Zionists, just as there are a lot of Jewish non-Zionists. In our industry, the VCs are overwhelmingly Zionist while the rest of the industry is non-Zionist and it's the Zionists that are getting people fired and blacklisted.

[flagged]

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#330

Post by toyg » Fri, Dec 08, 2023, 9:58 PM UTC

givemeethekeys wrote: post #288

rcpt wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is something particularly grating about how Israel acts with impunity on the world stage yet continues to receive unfaltering support from the US government. They secretly introduced nuclear weapons into the Middle East and refused to sign any of the treaties which are responsible for humanities current existence. According to Snowden the NSA provides them with whatever data they'd like, even that on Americans,…

What would you do if you were running the show in Israel? You’re responsible for a group of people that none of your neighbors want, even if they are the same race, ethnicity and religion, and those people have an ongoing campaign to push you out, which has been unsuccessful for as long as it has been going on. Oh yeah, their population is now many multiples higher than when all this started.

What would I do? Abandon the racist and outdated ethnostate ideal, which is dying all over the world anyway, and enfranchise "those people". Instead of "two people, two states", choose "one land, one humanity". This is the only way we don't all end up nuking each other.