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Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

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Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#321

Post by dragontamer »

generic92034 wrote: post #317
dragontamer wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.wlrk.com/docs/76660099_Final-Verified-Complaint.... This was my first search on Google, but there were many, many, many documents of this nature. Is this doc sufficient? Or are you looking for something else? I'm aware of earlier docs but it gets more legalize and arcane the further back you go. By the time the trials started, the argument from Twitter was incredibly strong and well documented. But the st…

Thanks, I did not see such a doc on the first three pages, so I am wondering if I was using bad search terms. However, looking through that document and not being a lawyer I am not feeling confident to interpret it correctly. What is a "Verified Complaint" in the first place? Are the items under "Nature of the Action" approved by the court or are they just claims of the complaining side? Also I am generally feeling n…

That's the best part of American courts.

You DO NOT need to be a lawyer to get the arguments. By the time the discussion reaches this stage, the arcane bits are stripped out and referenced explicitly.

In fact, the jury are laypeople, just average Joe's and Jane's. All arguments must be simplified to a point that average people can understand. So it's a good point to pickup info.

---------

Here's a few key events to note on this particular trial:

1. Strong opening argument from Twitter over the contract. My opinion of course, but just read the document and get a gist of the argument yourself.

2. Weak opening arguments from Musk's lawyers.

3. Repeated reprimands from the trial judge for various mistakes the Musk lawyer team were committing

4. Inconsistency between what Elon Musk was saying in public / in the media and what his lawyers were saying in the trial.

-------

Note that in this special case, a judge decided the case instead of a jury. But the argument style at this late stage is simplified to the point where ordinary people / a jury can understand in any case.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#322

Post by generic92034 »

dragontamer wrote: post #321
generic92034 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, I did not see such a doc on the first three pages, so I am wondering if I was using bad search terms. However, looking through that document and not being a lawyer I am not feeling confident to interpret it correctly. What is a "Verified Complaint" in the first place? Are the items under "Nature of the Action" approved by the court or are they just claims of the complaining side? Also I am generally feeling n…

That's the best part of American courts. You DO NOT need to be a lawyer to get the arguments. By the time the discussion reaches this stage, the arcane bits are stripped out and referenced explicitly. In fact, the jury are laypeople, just average Joe's and Jane's. All arguments must be simplified to a point that average people can understand. So it's a good point to pickup info. --------- Here's a few key events to n…

That does not change that I cannot categorize the document you have linked, nor its parts, see my previous questions in that regard: "What is a "Verified Complaint" in the first place? Are the items under "Nature of the Action" approved by the court or are they just claims of the complaining side?"

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#323

Post by blitzar »

cma wrote: post #275
littlestymaar wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > Microsoft owes the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) $28.9 billion in back taxes, not including penalties and interest

There was close to a zero interest rate during all that time, or does IRS use something way above normal for their rate?

Generally, in the case of a corporation, the underpayment rate is the federal short-term rate plus 3 percentage points and the overpayment rate is the federal short-term rate plus 2 percentage points. The rate for large corporate underpayments is the federal short-term rate plus 5 percentage points.

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/interest-rates-increase-for-the...

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#324

Post by blitzar »

adolph wrote: post #310
jeremyjh wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it make sense to have an engine squeeze a pre-packaged bag of juice?

Of course not. However, it wasn’t prepackaged juice (liquid), it was pulp, the part of plants from which juice is squeezed. Have you ever seen one of those machines in restaurants that from a hopper full of oranges, automatically slices, squeezes the juice into a glass and puts the rind etc into a composting bag? They do that to deliver a fresh glass of juice that people believe has a material difference from a can o…

> Have you ever seen one of those machines in restaurants that from a hopper full of oranges automatically slices, squeezes the juice into a glass and puts the rind etc into a composting bag

Apparently the founders and investors had not.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#325

Post by blitzar »

littlestymaar wrote: post #165
blitzar wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+ 10 years of interest and penalties, compounding.

From the article: > Microsoft owes the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) $28.9 billion in back taxes, not including penalties and interest

My bad first scan read (probably wrong now I look at it) was;

The IRS says Microsoft owes an additional $28.9 billion -- in tax for 2004 to 2013 plus penalties and interest

For an SEC filing they really should be declaring the actual value of their liability - the interest on the bill is going to be $10bn+

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#326

Post by dragontamer »

generic92034 wrote: post #322
dragontamer wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the best part of American courts. You DO NOT need to be a lawyer to get the arguments. By the time the discussion reaches this stage, the arcane bits are stripped out and referenced explicitly. In fact, the jury are laypeople, just average Joe's and Jane's. All arguments must be simplified to a point that average people can understand. So it's a good point to pickup info. --------- Here's a few key events to n…

That does not change that I cannot categorize the document you have linked, nor its parts, see my previous questions in that regard: "What is a "Verified Complaint" in the first place? Are the items under "Nature of the Action" approved by the court or are they just claims of the complaining side?"

Did you read the first paragraph?

> Plaintiff Twitter, Inc. (“Twitter”), by and through its undersigned counsel, as and for its complaint against defendants Elon R. Musk, X Holdings I, Inc. (“Parent”), and X Holdings II, Inc. (“Acquisition Sub”), alleges as follows:

If you are trying to say this is 'difficult to read', maybe don't pick things that are answered in the first paragraph.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#327

Post by tjbiddle »

wheelerof4te wrote: post #157
zie wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, like they would ever do that! They will make MS customers pay for it, if they can't convince the IRS to lower the bill significantly, which they probably can.

"if they can't convince the IRS to lower the bill significantly" Why would IRS agree to this? Would the IRS agree to lower your taxes if you pretty-pleased them? Microsoft should not be an exception.

The IRS works out payment plans and reduced payments very regularly, for both citizens and corporations alike.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#328

Post by generic92034 »

dragontamer wrote: post #326
generic92034 wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not change that I cannot categorize the document you have linked, nor its parts, see my previous questions in that regard: "What is a "Verified Complaint" in the first place? Are the items under "Nature of the Action" approved by the court or are they just claims of the complaining side?"

Did you read the first paragraph? > Plaintiff Twitter, Inc. (“Twitter”), by and through its undersigned counsel, as and for its complaint against defendants Elon R. Musk, X Holdings I, Inc. (“Parent”), and X Holdings II, Inc. (“Acquisition Sub”), alleges as follows: If you are trying to say this is 'difficult to read', maybe don't pick things that are answered in the first paragraph.

That does not tell me what a "Verified Complaint" really is. Obviously that is a technical term. Same with "Nature of the Action". If those points under "Nature of the Action" are merely points raised by Twitter, how can I trust them? Or did the court confirm those points? If so, I did not find where the document says that.

But let us stop here. It is obvious that you are very confident in interpreting documents like that. So I hope you are enjoying great gains from your investments based on your interpretations in similar cases.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#329

Post by xinayder »

kortilla wrote: post #296
xinayder wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big investors have a pass for doing shady stuff. They can do insider trading (up to a point where it's not considered insider trading), they can break the SEC rules to artificially reduce the share price of a company so they can buy it or drive them to bankruptcy, but a normal person like me and you can't do these things, because we don't have the money to get around with it. Big market actors are just institutionali…

> They can do insider trading This is incorrect. https://www.natlawreview.com/article/sec-secures-largest-eve... > they can break the SEC rules to artificially reduce the share price No, stock manipulation with falsification of bad information is also heavily prosecuted. Can you give specific examples where you think this happened? You might not be using the correct definition of “inside information” or “artificially…

A recent one: Unity CEO sold a huge amount of shares a week before they announced the pricing change on Unity.

Pfizer top-people bought a huge amount of shares before their vaccine was publicly approved and they sold it the moment the public was made aware that there was a vaccine for COVID-19 approved by the FDA

Microsoft bought a lot of Activision Blizzard shares a few days before they announced they would buy the company.

Having this thin line separating what's allowed and what isn't is not ideal. If you have privileged information, for example, that your product will be approved, something that isn't public knowledge, it should be considered insider trading.

Re: Microsoft SEC 8-K: IRS is seeking an additional tax payment of $29B

#330

Post by kwhitefoot »

Y_Y wrote: post #249
spockz wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is more of an Anglo-Saxon vs rest of Europe distinction. In UK (and presumably US) the letter of the law is more important than the intent. In the rest of Europe the intent is more important than the exact letter. In both cases it is up to the judiciary to make the trade-off/judgement.

Anglo-Saxon? What has that to do with Common vs. Civil Law? Or is it a magic term like "Caucasian" or "Judeo-Christian" that just handwaves some psuedo-historical distinction for "us vs them"?

They are probably claiming that English Common Law differs from Code Napoleon, and Roman Law in general, in the way they claim. As someone else mentions, they have it backwards.
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