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Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

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Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#321

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

scarface_74 wrote: post #318
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you need a laptop anyway what’s the point of getting an another machine which is just marginally faster? That wasn’t really the case 10-20 years ago when laptops weren’t really an option as a primary machine for demanding use cases. Laptops, even those marketed as "mobile workstations", really can't compete with a proper desktop-experience - yes, a docking-station goes a long way with replicating connectivity op…

You really think most developers in 2023 are using desktops?

Honestly, I don't know - but I'm not willing to bet either way: don't forget there's a _huge_ contingent of people at companies of all sizes that figured out VBA in Office by themselves and write software internally at work who don't identify with us, the HN fringe, who only code in the office, on a company-provided desktop.

I've only ever seen (and experienced first-hand) software companies and startups issuing laptops as-standard instead of desktops twice in my whole career, all other companies I've either worked for, or worked with, preferred desktops.

At my current company we interface with a lot of independent contractors and I have noticed that exclusive laptop use is far more common there - but it's still at-odds with my own personal experience.

Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#322

Post by whynotminot »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #308
ffhhttt wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because most people who bought these machines 20 years ago now just buy laptops which are perfectly sufficient for their use cases. Even if there was a 3000-400 desktop Mac Pro I doubt many people would buy it instead of a MBP. If you need a laptop anyway what’s the point of getting an another machine which is just marginally faster? That wasn’t really the case 10-20 years ago when laptops weren’t really an op…

> If you need a laptop anyway what’s the point of getting an another machine which is just marginally faster? That wasn’t really the case 10-20 years ago when laptops weren’t really an option as a primary machine for demanding use cases. Laptops, even those marketed as "mobile workstations", really can't compete with a proper desktop-experience - yes, a docking-station goes a long way with replicating connectivity op…

> Laptops, even those marketed as "mobile workstations", really can't compete with a proper desktop-experience

But that's what I've found remarkable about the MacBook Pro 16 with the M1 Max. It absolutely does replicate a desktop computing experience with smooth performance... and it does it even on battery power. As I said in my other post I've just never seen anything like it. It's beyond benchmarks to have an experience that just never hiccups or stalls on a laptop.

> A major point for me is that I treat my laptops and portables as though they could/will go missing the next day

You might need to recognize that you're the outlier in these conversations, then. The world has largely moved to laptops. Only those that truly need a desktop are issued one these days (and again, with the Max / Pro chips, even the need should be called into question for most use cases). Especially with hybrid work policies, I can't really imagine any modern corporate office issuing you a big old tower on your first day.

Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#323

Post by whynotminot »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #297
whynotminot wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple has seemingly intentionally priced themselves out of reach of smaller and indie creative-types I don't think this take makes any sense. Sure, you can spec out an insanely expensive Mac today. That's always been the case. But with Apple Silicon, there's actually never been a better price to performance ratio at the bottom end of their lineup, perhaps in Apple's entire history. An entry-level Mac Mini or MacBoo…

Except that the bottom end is severly hamstrung for "creators" with just 8gb of ram and 256gb of storage at half performance. Fix both and you are at $1000+ for the Mac mini; even worse in non-$ currencies, e.g. 1150€. The performance of that one is good and great for stuff like video editing, but it is also double the price. Side note: minisforum um790 with a current amd laptop chip seems to be competitive with an m…

The half rate SSD at the entry point is unfortunate, but it takes the SSD performance from great to just fine. I wouldn't call it a deal breaker, especially at the price-point. If you can't splurge a little higher, you'll be ok.

Really, getting the insanely good media encode engines built into the silicon is the point for a small indie creative shop (which is what we're talking about here). The rest of the M1/2 chip is just gravy for them.

Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#324

Post by jrockway »

adrian_b wrote: post #299
jrockway wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been looking for such a home firewall, but the power usage of an Intel box isn't competitive with the dedicated devices. Something like this seems nice: https://www.tp-link.com/us/business-networking/vpn-router/er... But I don't actually have >1Gbps service yet, and haven't needed to use my backup connection, so I have so far not taken the plunge.

For the lowest cost, volume and power consumption, you can use a NanoPi R5C: https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product... This provides up to 4 x 2.5 Gb/s Ethernet ports, plus WiFi. The passively-cooled metal box has 2 x 2.5 Gb/s Ethernet ports, but you can add another 2 ports with Ethernet USB dongles. It has a slow quadruple 2 GHz Cortex-A55 CPU, but this is still very fast in comparison with the…

The NanoPi is quite reasonable. There is a bigger one that has the I/O I need and a RK3588S, which is a pretty impressive SoC. I have an Orange Pi 5 with that SoC and the performance is beyond my expectations. I generally prefer stock Debian to OpenWRT anyway; I never know how to do what I want to do in the GUI, but I do know what iptables rules I want to write, so that's all good.

Of course not in stock, nothing good ever is, but someday...

Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#325

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

pshirshov wrote: post #320
oefrha wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the entry level workstation line today is Mac Studio (starting at $1999), not Mac Pro, which is strictly top end. The $6999 model of today is not equivalent to the old entry models in any way, unless you just go by bulkiness.

Why "not equivalent"? Both are top-tier workstation options of their times. But... the UX of PowerMac G5 is lot more pleasant and everything feels lot more responsive than on modern Pros. Probably because of lack of signature verifications, SIP, RPC with Apple servers. But still, those machines _feel_ better.

> But... the UX on PowerMac G5 is lot more pleasant and everything feels lot more responsive

Heh, that reminds me of when a friend of mine invited me over to show-off his hand-restored Mac (early-1990s-ish - I think it was a Performa 520 or 575?) and despite the lack of double-buffered graphics there were hardly any painting artifacts but the most striking thing was just how smooth and responsive everything felt - obviously the fact it's a CRT helps a lot.

When the world moved away from computer CRTs to TFTs we also went from 70-85Hz to 60Hz everywhere - and I swear I definitely can "feel" 60Hz vs. 85Hz - so I'm looking forward to monitors gradually shifting towards 120Hz or 144Hz (or higher?) because that definitely helps with responsiveness and snappiness, even with double-buffering and desktop composition.

Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#326

Post by cantSpellSober »

simmons wrote: post #117

Oh, I'm sorry to hear this. :( I've bought many NUCs over the years. I'm literally sitting in my office right now with 8 NUCs set up -- 1 as a workstation, and 7 as servers performing various tasks. I know people have always complained that they are a bit more expensive than the alternatives, but I'm willing to pay a premium for the excellent Linux compatibility and reliability. That said, I've been expecting this fo…

Easy to strap to the back of a dumb TV (back when "HTPCs" were a thing) too, to make it "smart" but with finer-grained control than new smart TVs.

Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#327

Post by diffeomorphism »

whynotminot wrote: post #323
diffeomorphism wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the bottom end is severly hamstrung for "creators" with just 8gb of ram and 256gb of storage at half performance. Fix both and you are at $1000+ for the Mac mini; even worse in non-$ currencies, e.g. 1150€. The performance of that one is good and great for stuff like video editing, but it is also double the price. Side note: minisforum um790 with a current amd laptop chip seems to be competitive with an m…

The half rate SSD at the entry point is unfortunate, but it takes the SSD performance from great to just fine. I wouldn't call it a deal breaker, especially at the price-point. If you can't splurge a little higher, you'll be ok. Really, getting the insanely good media encode engines built into the silicon is the point for a small indie creative shop (which is what we're talking about here). The rest of the M1/2 chip…

That still leaves the ram upgrade and thus 929€ at the current apple store price for 16gb ram, 256gb storage, 1 gbit ethernet. Which again, is an okay deal for a large sized nuc, but at $1000 that is about par for the course.

Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#328

Post by whynotminot »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #327
whynotminot wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The half rate SSD at the entry point is unfortunate, but it takes the SSD performance from great to just fine. I wouldn't call it a deal breaker, especially at the price-point. If you can't splurge a little higher, you'll be ok. Really, getting the insanely good media encode engines built into the silicon is the point for a small indie creative shop (which is what we're talking about here). The rest of the M1/2 chip…

That still leaves the ram upgrade and thus 929€ at the current apple store price for 16gb ram, 256gb storage, 1 gbit ethernet. Which again, is an okay deal for a large sized nuc, but at $1000 that is about par for the course.

Again, we're talking about entry level creators. I have been talking purely about the entry level models this whole time. I know what they come with. I know the specs, the upsides, and the downsides.

The entry-level models are great. The best entry-level machines Apple has ever offered. They would slot into any indie-creators workflow very well.

Would I recommend some upgrades if they can afford them? Yes. Some more RAM and more SSD is always a good idea. If they can't afford it? That's fine, the base models are fantastic.

Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#329

Post by snvzz »

pabs3 wrote: post #276
imtringued wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but I'm willing to pay a premium for the excellent Linux compatibility and reliability. Yeah it is quite strange. Even the Vision Five 2 RISC-V has better software support than your usual ARM SBC. The big caveat is that the opensource drivers only support Vulkan but Imagination ™ has planned on releasing a Vulkan based OpenGL implementation. Of course application software support is worse than ARM because of recompi…

I don't think the VF2 Linux kernel patches are in mainline yet? Many ARM SBCs are in mainline.

Not all patches are there, but an impressive amount[0] already is, despite how young this platform is.

0. https://rvspace.org/en/project/JH7110_Upstream_Plan

Re: Intel exiting the PC business as it stops investment in the Intel NUC

#330

Post by diffeomorphism »

whynotminot wrote: post #328
diffeomorphism wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still leaves the ram upgrade and thus 929€ at the current apple store price for 16gb ram, 256gb storage, 1 gbit ethernet. Which again, is an okay deal for a large sized nuc, but at $1000 that is about par for the course.

Again, we're talking about entry level creators. I have been talking purely about the entry level models this whole time. I know what they come with. I know the specs, the upsides, and the downsides. The entry-level models are great. The best entry-level machines Apple has ever offered. They would slot into any indie-creators workflow very well. Would I recommend some upgrades if they can afford them? Yes. Some more…

> If they can't afford it? That's fine

Agree to disagree. Even for "entry level creators" the 8gb ram is a dealbreaker in my view. That ups the effective base price to 900€. Again very good machine, but no surprise that 900€ gets you a good device.

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