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Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

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Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#321
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love to agree with you but people in general are easily manipulated on mass. Currently the majority are too I'll informed to make appropriate decisions about anything, making them even easily to manipulate. I'll include myself in this. For real democracy to work it's more than giving all people the right to vote on all things. They need to all be informed about all the issues in an impartial way in a way that tho…

The point of democracy is not that everybody is perfectly informed to come to the logically best outcome. The point is that it gives a people agency over their own future. If they choose to be ill-informed and pick bad candidates, they own the consequences. Democracy does not lead to the best outcome, but to the most fair one.

The only real value I can see with democracy is in being able to pull the lever and get a new set of dice to role if things go bad.

Beyond that it seems to be mostly mythology and nonsense. You either have smart good rulers or you don't. At least if we don't they only have so much time to do damage and we try again.

The idea democracy gives people agency over their future I would put in the category of mythology.

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#322
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, agencies have all these capabilities, but at the same time they rarely sway the practical course of history. When the "euromaidan" demos in Ukraine forced regime change, and the Russians hacked and leaked all US/EU diplomatic chatter around it, the contents were utterly banal and predictable. There was no grand conspiracy or execution, just a bunch of interests scrambling to react. Intercepting communications gi…

I didn't follow that at the time and I'm finding it hard to find information about it, would love a link to those leaked documents.

Search "Victoria Nuland" and it will come up.

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Says who. Just a few tabloid rags like The Washington Post [1], The Guardian [2], and The Atlantic [3]. > That doesn’t mean he has to pledge allegiance during that period. Regardless it’s not what an American patriot does. That narrative is untenable now. Pledging allegiance is required to obtain Russian citizenship, which grants him additional protections from the United States. It is also required to obtain a Rus…

> Russian citizenship, which grants him additional protections from the United States Protections he apparently didn’t need for nearly a decade, but did once Russia was executing its genocidal war. Your “he’s merely scared of America” narrative doesn’t hold water. > trapped him in an adversarial foreign country No one made him travel and his passport was revoked before flying to Moscow, evidence elsewhere on the thre…

[deleted]

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#324
post #308
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your takeaway is wrong. It isn't the government doing naughty secret things but the government doing so with support from a plurality of the people. The patriot act is a non-partisan issue that gets renewed every administration. Snowden and Assange should be locked up accroding to a majority of americans. Your takeaway should be that a democracy would always reflect the will of the people with or without any…

> The people gave away their freedoms out of fear. Where do you think that fear comes from? It can be fabricated using real or fake events anytime the government wants to pursue a political or financial goal. Modern media is a government mouthpiece, even in apparent liberal democracies, and is used to sway public opinion in any direction. This mechanism is also exploited by political enemies, to sow dissent and socia…

The original fear of terrorism was very real, but they sacrificed theirs and their childrens freedoms for temporary security. The cowards let the terrorists win.

We live in the most information accessible time in history and in the US most people can read and write and are capable of researching topics on the internet. If someone is falling for fake information, it is not the media's fault, they can fact check any media themselves. It is because their ears are hearing the lies they crave. Even when you debate with people these days on many political topics they basically plug their ears and scream "fake news". They are more interested in winning culture wars than the truth. The immigrant family down the streer driving down home prices or having to attend diversity meetings at work is a greater concern than the FBI monitoring all their comms.

There have always been media and politicians that want to use fear to control the people. Why is now and why is the US special?

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#325
post #311
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you completely misinterpret the situation with Russia and China. Russia and China have the objectives of their own. For Russia it is to expand their empire that in their own mind rightfully belongs to them. They didn't attack Ukraine because of US actions but because they seriously believe that they have some kind of right over Ukrainians lands, or even more seriously, that Ukrainians don't exists. If US woul…

No, you're misrepresenting it. Your rationale is that Russia is an evil empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory, and that's why it attacked Ukraine... a primary school level of simplification. You ignore that Russia's number one fear after the collapse of the USSR was for another military invasion from the West, as had happened several times over the last few centuries... that Russia's border with Ukr…

"Russia's number one fear after the collapse of the USSR was for another military invasion from the West[...]"

Nice, Russia is just defending itself. Excuse me i need to go laugh out loud somewhere

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#326
post #324
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people gave away their freedoms out of fear. Where do you think that fear comes from? It can be fabricated using real or fake events anytime the government wants to pursue a political or financial goal. Modern media is a government mouthpiece, even in apparent liberal democracies, and is used to sway public opinion in any direction. This mechanism is also exploited by political enemies, to sow dissent and socia…

The original fear of terrorism was very real, but they sacrificed theirs and their childrens freedoms for temporary security. The cowards let the terrorists win. We live in the most information accessible time in history and in the US most people can read and write and are capable of researching topics on the internet. If someone is falling for fake information, it is not the media's fault, they can fact check any me…

> There have always been media and politicians that want to use fear to control the people. Why is now and why is the US special?

The US certainly isn't special. We see the effects of disinformation in all countries. Increase in social tensions and belief in conspiracy theories, elections swung by social media campaigns, the radical right gaining power, Brexit, etc. These are all orchestrated in part by companies like Cambridge Analytica, foreign and local propaganda, troll farms, etc.

None of this is really new. What's made it special _now_ is the internet. It has given both local and foreign agents the reach and power to influence public opinion on an unprecedented scale.

> If someone is falling for fake information, it is not the media's fault, they can fact check any media themselves.

Really? Fact check it where, on the internet? If all sources of information are polluted to the point where it's either impossible or very difficult to discern fact from fiction, can we really blame people for believing what they read, hear and see?

But you're right that the average person won't even make an effort to doubt the information they're provided from whatever source they already align with. So, yes, education and critical thinking are crucial, but this is exactly what disinformation agents know how to exploit. Psyops and information warfare work, and they work better today than ever before.

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you also want other national agencies to spy on US citizens without "being slowed down by too many procedures? They already do, and with less oversight. What makes you think the US not spying on them will change their behavior? > Further increasing the amount of illegal hacking for everyone. There is no law that prevents countries from spying on each other, so I don't know what you think is illegal here.

China and russia might have had no restraint like you. Agencies in EU countries actually did. "There is no law that prevents countries from spying on each other, so I don't know what you think is illegal here. " Depending on your definition of "law", is there a law preventing agencies from going somewhere else and killing and stealing as they see fit? International law is kind of complicated, but the basic idea is to…

> is there a law preventing agencies from going somewhere else and killing and stealing as they see fit?

Yes, the laws of the country they go to.

>>International law is kind of complicated, but the basic idea is to not interfere with each other to keep the peace.

How is spying interfering with each other?

> And activly hacking foreign computers is considered interfering

What about passively collecting the information they send to the US?

> Well yes, that was how it was considered in germany, when it became known that the NSA did hack the phone of Merkel.

Utter nonsense. Merkel isn't that naïve. https://www.politico.eu/article/spying-allies-normal-us-denm...

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft is especially cooperative, even as going so far to make sure their systems are compatible with surveillance systems. What is a good example?

_NSAKEY: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSAKEY

Because of the name, however, it was speculated that the key would allow the United States National Security Agency (NSA) to subvert any Windows user's security.

Not only is that poor "proof", how do you propose a public key be used to subvert any user's security?

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> After the collapse of the USSR, Russia repeatedly tried to join NATO. That never happened. You will no find no trace of that in State Duma transcripts, policy papers or any other contemporary source. I can show you a long trail of adopted laws and doctrines for countries that eventually joined NATO (or failed in their bid), but nothing of this sort exists for Russia. It's a hoax invented to justify the invasion of…

> That never happened. Even left-wing Guardian admits as much, you can find easily find other sources: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/04/ex-nato-head-s... The West offered the "Partnership for Peace" program at the beginning of the 90s a distraction simply because they didn't see Russia as partners, but as defeated enemies. Even if we concede for a moment that this promise never happened, lots of people,…

>> Even left-wing Guardian admits as much

I don't put much value into what the Guardian write on topics like these. Joining a major international organization is a huge undertaking that involves thousands of people from many institutions over many years. Countries that joined NATO or tried to (Ukraine, Georgia) have a long paper trail of adopted laws, policy documents, parliamentary discussions and other bureaucratic artifacts. Show me Russia's trail.

For example, here's Polish timeline:

  * 31 March 1991. Warsaw Pact dissolved.
  * 11 March 1992. NATO secretary general visits Poland and says that the door to NATO is open.
  * 10 April 1992. Polish defense minister and chief of staff attend NATO Military Committee meeting for the first time.
  * 1 September 1993. Polish president sends a letter to NATO stating that NATO membership was a top priority of Polish foreign policy.
  * 10 January 1994. NATO summit in Brussels. NATO proposes partnership in exercises, peacekeeping and humanitarian operations.
  * 12 January 1994. Polish president meets with Clinton in Prague and accepts the offer.
  * 2 February 1994. Polish prime minister signs partnership framework at NATO HQ in Brussels.
  * 12 September 1994. First joint exercises.
  * 26 January 1996. NATO invites Poland to individual dialogue with NATO.
  * 8 February 1996. Polish ministers of defense and foreign affairs send a latter to NATO accepting the invitation.
  * 4 April 1996. Poland presents a vision for cooperation with NATO.
  * 7 May 1996. The start of one-on-one meetings between NATO and Poland within the individual dialogue framework.
  * 8 July 1997. NATO invites Poland into the organization.
  * 16 September 1997. Offical accession talks begin. 
  * 14 November 1997. Polish foreign minister accepts the invitation.
  * 16 December 1997. Polish foreign minister signs the official accession protocols.
  * 28 December 1997. Polish ambassador attends a meeting of NATO's North Atlantic Council for the first time.
  * 2 February 1998. Canada becomes the first NATO member to ratify Poland's accession protocols.
  * 17 December 1998. Polish defense minister attends a meeting of NATO defense ministers for the first time.
  * 29 January 1999. NATO secretary general sends a formal NATO invitation to Poland.
  * 17 February 1999. Polish parliament ratifies the North Atlantic Treaty.
  * 12 March 1999. Poland becomes NATO member and the official ceremony is held.
And this is only a very superficial overview. Every major step was preceded by tons of discussions, minutes from meetings, transcripts from debates. If you printed it all out, you'd need a dump truck to move all those documents.

What's Russia's timeline? What policy papers were adopted, what agreements signed towards becoming a NATO member?

>> That has been claimed often but proven wrong by the cable leaks.

NATO allegedly assured Soviet leadership in 1990 that NATO would not expand eastwards. Multiple Soviet participants of those meetings have denied that. When the hoax first appeared, Soviet foreign minister Shevardnadze gave a lengthy interview, in which he not only denies those claims, but points out that they are anachronistic and don't fit the timeline of events. In 1990, Soviet leadership didn't forsee collapse of Warsaw Pact and the USSR itself. According to him, the possible NATO status of countries like Poland was never discussed, not with NATO, not within Warsaw Pact, not within the Communist Party circles in Moscow. That was totally out of the question and beyond comprehension, there was no need to seek any assurances.

Link to the interview: https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-e...

Before Eastern Europe started negotiating entry, NATO and Russia signed a treaty in which they agreed to respect the right of other countries to forge alliances how they prefer. That was in May 1997. Former Warsaw Pact countries were invited into NATO in July 1997 and official negotiations began in September.

So even if such assurance existed, Russia and NATO agreed in that 1997 to the opposite before any Warsaw Pact country started official negotiations with NATO.

>> This is just a generic ad-hominem. If you have substantial rebuttals, I'm eager to hear them.

There are many ways he manipulates facts into his narrative, but I'll give you one very clear and non-political example how he misleads his audience. He shows a map of Russian share in European gas consumption at 8:48 (https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?t=525) and says that Eastern Europe is heavily dependant on Russian gas. It shows countries like Finland at 100%. While it is true that all of Finland's gas comes from Russia, natural gas makes up only 2% of all fuels consumed in Finland. This is not by chance, but by official government policy, which keeps Russian gas consumption low in order not to give Russians a way to extort Finland as could happen if Finland depended on Russian gas to a great degree. Other countries in Eastern Europe have pursued the same policy and have low share of gas in overall consumption, even if all of it comes from Russia.

Or if you want another example, then at 6:10 (https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?t=370), Mearsheimer shows a map of Ukraine divided into red and yellow depicting Ukrainian and Russian language areas, saying how Ukraine is linguistically (and not only) "a badly divided country". That's extremely misleading. Ukraine is a bilingual country, where Ukrainian language is dominant in western part of the country and Russian language is in the eastern part, but there is no divide, because most people speak both languages and they inhabit a shared cultural space instead of living in parallel societies that don't mix due to language barriers. Here's a great map illustrating that, pay attention to vertical bars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map12_b.png Purple bars represent penetration of Ukrainian language and blue bars Russian language.

In regions like Kharkiv, only 10% of the population speaks only one language, evenly either only Russian or only Ukranian, so there's no reason to paint it as Russian. Out of 20 people, 18 speak both languages, 1 speaks only Ukranian, and 1 only Russian. Does this look like a "deep divide" to you?

Re: Reflections on Ten Years Past the Snowden Revelations

#330
post #311
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you completely misinterpret the situation with Russia and China. Russia and China have the objectives of their own. For Russia it is to expand their empire that in their own mind rightfully belongs to them. They didn't attack Ukraine because of US actions but because they seriously believe that they have some kind of right over Ukrainians lands, or even more seriously, that Ukrainians don't exists. If US woul…

No, you're misrepresenting it. Your rationale is that Russia is an evil empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory, and that's why it attacked Ukraine... a primary school level of simplification. You ignore that Russia's number one fear after the collapse of the USSR was for another military invasion from the West, as had happened several times over the last few centuries... that Russia's border with Ukr…

Well, Russia is an evil empire trying to expand its borders to its former glory. If you haven't understood this by now then it's not meaningful to continue this discussion with you.
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