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HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#321

Post by WalterBright »

WalterBright wrote: post #240
mcny wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because that's not how it works Exactly! I don’t know how to deal with people who talk about the economy in terms of a perfect competition free market where all participants have full knowledge and are all equal in terms of power. If a physicist talked in terms of zero friction or spherical cows, we would laugh them off and never listen to them again. And yet people continue to talk about the economy with these ass…

I don't know where the requirement of full knowledge became part of the definition of a free market. Because it isn't true. Another word for lack of knowledge is "risk". The amount of risk is factored into the price of everything you buy and sell. For example, a name brand item sells for a higher price than a generic item because the name brand carries with it less risk for the buyer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

Note that "perfect information" is not part of the definition of it.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#322

Post by phkahler »

injidup wrote: post #262
htss2013 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you assume the market efficiently adjusts for things like fines? Have you seen the stock market lately? There is at best a loose correlation between business reality and stock prices. Why would there be a 1 to 1 relationship between the price of stocks and reality, when most investing is blind passive investing that ignores reality by design?

If you are sure stocks are over or under priced then go mortgage your house and trade your financial security against the market and win.

You can't predict when the market will stop behaving stupidly. Betting against stupid is often considered a bad idea.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#323

Post by dryanau »

DiabloD3 wrote: post #35

Did you know Brother makes really good printers that are inexpensive and live a long, happy, life? And their drivers aren't user hostile? This is one of those really good "vote with your wallets" situations.

Not true for my brother MFC. It mow refuses to accept generic toner.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#324

Post by nmeagent »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #52
CoastalCoder wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious if this violates U.S. code 1030(a)(5) [0] "(5) (A)knowingly causes the transmission of a program, information, code, or command, and as a result of such conduct, intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected computer; (B)intentionally accesses a protected computer without authorization, and as a result of such conduct, recklessly causes damage; or (C)intentionally accesses a protected…

Are we even sure that the customers legally own the printers? For instance, has anyone bothered to read the EULA that came with whatever bundled software someone installs now days to get the printer driver working? Even if there isn't surreptitious transfer of the hardware, they could certainly have a clause in there that authorizes them to do such things.

If we ever want customers to have a fighting chance at protecting their rights against the interests of corporations, we must drastically narrow what rights can be 'waived' in an EULA. It's absurd that today you can buy a physical good and somehow some non-negotiated piece of legalese that you don't even get to read until you open the box can somehow 'authorize' them to choose what kind of ink you are allowed to put in it. This notion must die and any castles built upon it must fall.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#325

Post by Zak »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #163
jorvi wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. Yesterday I wanted to grab some Fanta for in the park. A 0.33L can would’ve been too little, but a 1L bottle too much, and a 1.5L bottle far too much. 0.50L was the perfect size. The pricing? 0.33L - €0.66 (€2.00 per L) 0.50L - €1.48 (€2.96 per L) 1.00L - €1.93 (€1.93 per L) 1.50L - €2.09 (€1.39 per L) Initially this made me angry, as it is very clear they figured out that the 0.5L bottle is the most con…

> This is also why you should never feel bad if you can get one over on a company. Pricing error that gets you expensive shoes for €1? Screw ‘em. Contractual obligation that effectively gives you lifetime for €1? Screw ‘em. They’ll do the same to you whenever they can I recently saw a £700 bicycle carbon fork on sale for £70, new, the shop just forgot a zero. I didnt buy it out of feeling bad :(

I'm guessing a component like that was being sold by a local bike shop or a small chain, not an inhuman multinational corporation. I hope you told somebody about the error rather than just leaving it for the next person to buy.

If a company like Amazon mispriced something that way, I'd gladly buy it.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#326

Post by ryao »

Spooky23 wrote: post #200
mcny wrote: post #12

The CEO and the board must serve prison time for things like this. No measure less than prison for the CEO and all board members is enough to curtail this because it just becomes the cost of doing business. No, you can’t say it wasn’t your decision. If you want to not be held accountable for the work your employees, contractors, and agents do on your behalf, you should have to prove they acted against your express wr…

Why? HP has documented that they do this for years. The solution is really simple. Buy a printer that doesn’t do this. Many exist. They cost more, because HP sells these as loss leaders.

Which printers with ink cartridges does HP sell that are not loss leaders? Do they not do this on them?

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#327

Post by ryao »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #222
crazygringo wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not send top stockholders to prison while you're at it? And regional managers as well? And the stores that sell the printers too? No, prison makes zero sense. When people agree to a business contract and one side fails to uphold their end of the bargain, the remedy should remain financial. And punitive remedies exist precisely to make sure the "cost of doing business" makes it no longer profitable. And if that's…

So fraud shouldn't result in prison time? This isn't an "oops I couldn't do what I said", it's purposeful.

I wonder if their lawyers will argue that putting that they do this in their documentation and advertising materials precludes any possibility of fraud. You cannot view HP’s printer descriptions without having this mentioned in them.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#328

Post by makeitdouble »

local_crmdgeon wrote: post #255
makeitdouble wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of those really good "vote with your wallets" situations. This is a really good situation for actual voting, like actual political action to have regulation, instead of pretend voting. HP probably doesn't give a damn about the HN crowd, it won't affect their business line in the little, so there's no signaling here. And assuming Brother gets enough of a loyal following, they can now (probably already ar…

Hard disagree. This is how Chrome won the browser wars - people ask their nerdy cousin which browser to use. The market of HN is small, but the market power is large. Also, I guarantee you people here make large corporate purchases for things like printers, networking equipment - stuff HP cares about.

Have you ever been asked what printer to buy ?

I have family members ask to _fix_ their printers, never had one actually taking advice before buying one nor follow advice.

And the reason is simple:

- Google has a tremendous positive brand image in most people's mind, Brother means nothing outside of the elderly generation.

- Printers are seen as a commodity and get thrown at people for 30 bucks at the supermarket. They also work well for the first 30~40 prints, and while we'll bitch about printer ink price, regular people will see it as a cost of doing business and pay.

- Brother printers are reliable but actually not that good from a "what features do you have ?" customer standpoint. I ended up having a secundary HP printer for that very reason: it fits in a niche that no other sane printer maker will touch. And come to think of it, my parents bought the same HP printer after seeing use it in vacation, and they never asked about our Xerox in the living room. And yes, they buy HP cartridges (they also didn't ask me before buying...)

Large corporate purchases: nobody "buys" printer or ink. They comes with a lease and a maintenance contract, and are paid by the page. If the technician comes within 3h to fix the printer and it works ok for another 40 days, no office manager will care about what exact printers are set in the buildings.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#329

Post by WalterBright »

jorvi wrote: post #312
WalterBright wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> modern companies will always try to give you the least amount of value for the highest price the market will bear Modern consumers will always try to pay as little as possible for the highest amount of value they can. The proper term for this is The Law of Supply and Demand. It's how markets work. BTW, your anecdote illustrates why making the effort to learn some math while in grade school is worthwhile.

Supply and demand presumes that I would have wanted something else than Fanta - since I (and presumably others) did not, Fanta had market power :). As an aside, the example would be even more dramatic with non-sugar, where the 0.5L bottle is €1.88, but the 1L bottle is €1.95, due to both the price premium of ‘convenient size’ and ‘healthy alternative’ being stacked.

> Supply and demand presumes that I would have wanted something else than Fanta

That's not how S&D works. S&D is in-play even if Fanta had a monopoly. Even if the prices were set by the government. Governments have tried every scheme imaginable to repeal the law of S&D, but they never work.

BTW, I gave up all soda about 15 years ago. It took about a year to finally stop craving it. I no longer have any desire for it.

Besides the health issues, it has saved me a ton of money in aggregate.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#330

Post by Zak »

charcircuit wrote: post #318
contravariant wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of a weird world we live in where intellectual property gives someone else legal power over what we may do with our own devices, but conversely our ability to do things with our devices that is within our legal right is not considered our property.

That's not what's happening here. HP doesn't have power over what you can do to your printer. If you want to modify your printer so that it allows for ungenuine ink to be used you are free to do so.

HP modified other peoples' printers without genuine[0] consent to make the printers less valuable. It should probably be illegal for them to do that.

I imagine there isn't an existing criminal law covering that and I'm not in favor of interpreting criminal laws creatively to expand their scope, however I could be convinced to support making a new criminal law to cover this kind of behavior.

[0] No doubt, they have some fine print in a clickwrap agreement giving themselves permission.

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