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Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

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Re: Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

#321

Post by senttoschool »

okeuro49 wrote: post #319
senttoschool wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your reference frame. You're thinking about it as an individual. But is your company's productivity better? Is your team's productivity better? That's ultimately what will come down to. It's fair to say that HN is overwhelmingly pro-remote work. This is because coding is uniquely "not bad" for remote work. And there are many coders on HN. But pretty much every other department is worse off with 100% remote…

> Everyone is just a mercenary. Very little culture or care is created. As they should be. I like and am friends with my colleagues. But I am under no delusional that I would be let go immediately if the profit motive of my company didn't justify my being there.

That's not the point.

The point is that companies with people who care and developed culture is expected to outperform companies where people just feel like they're mercenaries.

There is no question that companies with motivated employees who care about the success of the company and those he/she works with are more likely to outcompete companies that don't have same time.

Good companies mask the fact that yes, everyone is just a mercenary. It's easier to mask this fact when people work in person.

Re: Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

#322

Post by PeterisP »

toyg wrote: post #316
senttoschool wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your reference frame. You're thinking about it as an individual. But is your company's productivity better? Is your team's productivity better? That's ultimately what will come down to. It's fair to say that HN is overwhelmingly pro-remote work. This is because coding is uniquely "not bad" for remote work. And there are many coders on HN. But pretty much every other department is worse off with 100% remote…

> Everyone is just a mercenary. That simply mirrors corporate culture. For all the chest-beating to the contrary, the overwhelming majority of companies are not "families" or "bands of friends" - they're groups of people there to make money. When the company has no loyalty or compassion towards employees, employees will do the same to the company.

People don't form loyalty or compassion towards the organization, but they inevitably do towards each other. If you put a bunch of people together on a task, then no matter how they got there - for money, for fame, or forced to do so - they generally do develop shared bonds and do things because of their teammates. Heck, in war when push comes to shove, soldiers aren't really motivated to die for their country but rather for their squadmates - even if they were simply placed there randomly as recruits some weeks earlier, and even if they are literal mercenaries.

So for most neurotypical people simply being on at a job for some time is sufficient to form a shared local culture and camaraderie. But that does not happen remotely, not unless people go out of their way to build similar bonds explicitly; the natural process requires being physically close and communicating during routine activities, not just to exchange strictly necessary information.

Re: Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

#323

Post by matwood »

senttoschool wrote: post #315
bediger4000 wrote: post #314

That seems like a dumb thing to say about an experience so many of us have. My productivity, health and state of mind were all better when I worked from home. Why is Altman lying to me?

Depends on your reference frame. You're thinking about it as an individual. But is your company's productivity better? Is your team's productivity better? That's ultimately what will come down to. It's fair to say that HN is overwhelmingly pro-remote work. This is because coding is uniquely "not bad" for remote work. And there are many coders on HN. But pretty much every other department is worse off with 100% remote…

Regardless of productivity (I think it's been shown to be better for WFH or at least equivalent), companies do not like WFH because it gives some power back to the worker.

Culture and relationships can absolutely be built remotely, but it does require leadership to be deliberate. Another thing highlighted by WFH is just how bad leadership was/is.

Re: Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

#324

Post by oDot »

Not all remote work is equal, and as a matter of fact if done poorly (read: if you work the same as in the office, but remote) it can be much worse than onsite.

I wrote a booklet about avoiding common pitfalls a few years back[0], and really the approach of the business is the most important thing after employee compatibility.

[0] https://www.emergencyremote.com/

Re: Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

#325

Post by onion2k »

The full quote is a bit narrower than the title implies;

> "I think definitely one of the tech industry's worst mistakes in a long time was that everybody could go full remote forever, and startups didn't need to be together in person and, you know, there was going to be no loss of creativity,” he told attendees. "I would say that the experiment on that is over, and the technology is not yet good enough that people can be full remote forever, particularly on startups."

There are two points here - firstly he's talking about 'full remote' so hybrid work is still on the table, and secondly he's talking mostly about startups rather than established companies. With those caveats in mind what he says is a lot less controversial. But still a little.

Where it's disappointing (to me) is that it seems he's just ... giving up. He's suggesting that there are problems with remote work for creative teams, but rather than think of ways to solve those problems he's defaulting to the not-much-better-for-creativity-and-far-worse-for-other-things 'solution' of working in offices. That's kind of rubbish. Sam Altman is a clever guy who has a ton of experience working in startups, and the suggestion that he hasn't ever seen one work well and can't think of anything other than 'everyone in the same room' isn't very exciting.

What's especially sad is that he said this stuff while he was in an office. Surely that's the most creative place!

Re: Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

#326

Post by villgax »

Asking him opinions on how to work is a mistake.

Love how insecure management is just crumbling at the thought of not watching people work in-person or middle management being laid off outright for busy work or bootlicking in person.

All the freelancers, contractors, remote teams, ramen profitable entrepreneurs & outsourcing teams have been remote or not in office all these years. COVID just showed rest of workers how much time & energy was being wasted in mindless commute

Re: Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

#328

Post by karthickshiva »

bediger4000 wrote: post #314

That seems like a dumb thing to say about an experience so many of us have. My productivity, health and state of mind were all better when I worked from home. Why is Altman lying to me?

I understand your frustration and disappointment with Altman's statement. However, it's important to remember that everyone's experience with working from home can vary greatly. While it may have been beneficial for you, it may not have been the same for others. It's also possible that Altman's statement was based on research or data that supports his claim. It's always good to keep an open mind and consider different perspectives.

Re: Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

#329

Post by Fnoord »

bediger4000 wrote: post #314

That seems like a dumb thing to say about an experience so many of us have. My productivity, health and state of mind were all better when I worked from home. Why is Altman lying to me?

The headline is misleading.

The article mentions:

> "I think definitely one of the tech industry's worst mistakes in a long time was that everybody could go full remote forever, and startups didn't need to be together in person and, you know, there was going to be no loss of creativity,” he told attendees. "I would say that the experiment on that is over, and the technology is not yet good enough that people can be full remote forever, particularly on startups."

He's talking multiple points here.

1) Everybody (!) go full (!!) remote forever (!!!). These are three extreme points; everybody (as opposed to nobody or the grey area 'some people'), full (as opposed to never or the grey area 'sometimes'), forever (as opposed to never or the grey area 'for some time').

2) Then he goes on about startups specifically.

3) That there would be no loss of creativity.

#1 is a very extreme standpoint (its a cute staw man :) which is easy to counter. Because, no, remote working didn't work for everybody. We can stop the discussion there already. So its meant to get the picture in your head of 'yeah, it didn't work for X or Y'.

Then, #3 seems to still refer to #2 and is specifically about startups. Loss of creativity is a general statement. If there's a loss of creativity for one person, two personae, or one team, and the rest is working happy and productive remotely then the statement holds up. Here's the kicker: where's the gains? Isn't it a huge sum of plus and minus?

Nowhere do these statements back up themselves with actual data and either way, it appears to be an argument against working fully remotely, for everyone, forever, in startups. Yawn.

Rather, I believe its a lack of trust towards employees. In the end, their productivity gets loosely qualified anyway, so its probably the QQ from some middle management or disgruntled over-performer who's trying to be relevant. You can say politics should stay out of work, well... this is politics on the work-floor.

Getting the control back, post COVID-19, I already knew was coming when COVID-19 started and remote work was implemented. I knew that when COVID-19 pandemic would end, some would want to go back to 'ye olde', regardless if it were better or not, regardless if it worked better or worse for the individual(s) below their rank. Because, bad managers are control freaks.

On top of that, you can start your work day on the same moment you'd start your commute, and end the workday on the moment you'd end your commute. And then you just slack a little bit more in between. You'll easily turn more efficient because slacking is a great way to enter the diffused mode of thinking of the brain (in reality, its actually working). Something like a walk in the park at lunch to get your head clear, getting inspired and ready for the next couple of hours? Working. So from my PoV, its actually free labor, but so can a commute be.

Re: Sam Altman says era of remote work is over

#330

Post by AHOHA »

>The idea of fully remote work becoming the norm has come and gone

The idea has always been there, it was never new, and it didn’t go anywhere and I don’t think it’s going anywhere either.

And then the article says

>and the technology is not yet good enough that people can be full remote forever, particularly on startups."

Followed by at the end

>He also worries some might be freeing up time by using A.I. tools like OpenAI’s ChatGPT and GPT-4—time that his company isn’t utilizing.

So, I think the technology IS too good for remote work that companies couldn’t tell if they’re properly enslaving their employees or not, that they fear those employees are still maintaining the required productivity output without being miserable for once.

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