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New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

independent.co.uk

321–330 of 340 posts

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#321
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have always held Carl Sagan in high esteem without actually having read his books. Here's a tiny excerpt from Pale Blue Dot. This excerpt elevates the book to high art, Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confid…

Lovely. That's the kind of sentiment I was hoping to inspire in the kids. That's not what I found in _Cosmos_ though. The tale of Giordano Bruno seemed more like a celebration of blind faith and trust in posthumous vindication and martyrdom. And an Indiana Jones style switcheroo from Catholicism to Sciencism in one swift motion. Jarring.

I am a bit unsure about what you mean by "sciencism," but I recommend watching the original series and reading Dr Sagan's books!

A persistent theme in Dr Sagan's work was the frailty of knowledge, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vMPtpC4wGk and the danger enlightenment faces from fanatics. He also talked, at length, about the shortcomings of religion (and the possibility of partnering with religions against pseudoscience),

    This is one of the reasons that the organized religions do not inspire me with confidence. Which leaders of the major faiths acknowledge that their beliefs might be incomplete or erroneous and establish institutes to uncover possible doctrinal deficiencies? Beyond the test of everyday living, who is systematically testing the circumstances in which traditional religious teachings may no longer apply? (It is certainly conceivable that doctrines and ethics that may have worked fairly well in patriarchal or patristic or medieval times might be thoroughly invalid in the very different world we inhabit today.) What sermons even-handedly examine the God hypothesis? What rewards are religious skeptics given by the established religions or, for that matter, social and economic skeptics by the society in which they swim?
     
     Science, Ann Druyan notes, is forever whispering in our ears, "Remember, you're very new at this. You might be mistaken. You've been wrong before." Despite all the talk of humility, show me something comparable in religion. Scripture is said to be divinely inspired--a phrase with many meanings. But what if it's simply made up by fallible humans? Miracles are attested, but what if they're instead some mix of charlatanry, unfamiliar states of consciousness, misapprehensions of natural phenomena, and mental illness? No contemporary religion and no New Age belief seems to me to take sufficient account of the grandeur, magnificence, subtlety and intricacy of the Universe revealed by science. The fact that so little of the findings of modern science is prefigured in Scripture to my mind casts further doubt on its divine inspiration.
    
    But of course I might be wrong.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#322
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This oath vs affirmation distinction is made clear in the UK for sure. For example when I became a British citizen I was given the option of swearing allegiance to the queen or making a "solemn affirmation" of the same. The only difference being a slight difference of wording. Weirdly I still remember the wording even though it was more than 30 years ago and I only heard it once just before I said it. > I, Sean Hunte…

When I gained citizenship of a highly religious country I had to swear an oath with my hand on a cross, with silver Jesus attached. I asked if there was an atheist option and the the answer was basically "No, we have enough faith to know that God will punish you for lying."

Great... no danger from being prosecuted for anything in that country... Jesus will take charge of that...

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#323
post #101

Is there any actual strict requirement that you have to swear over a document of some kind? I'd have thought swearing over the bible is a stand-in for swearing "before God", and that God would ultimately be your reckoner should you break your oath. If you don't have that meaning behind the oath, what is the point in using a book at all unless it's something meaningful like the constitution of your country, as another…

As someone who does believe in God, it seems odd to get someone to swear on a book that tells you not to swear an oath at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_5#Verse_12

mmm... has I remember you can... only not in vain...

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#324
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing habits. Plenty of things are habits but not rituals.

We’re going to have to disagree. Habits are merely unformalized rituals. If you examine your day-to-day you may find many rituals you do to prepare your self for the coming moment. Adjusting your volume on your music before a coding session. I obviously don’t know you, but a lot of people like to prepare snacks before watching Youtube. There are a lot of things we think of as habit, but we prepared them literally lik…

Unformalized ritual is an oxymoron. None of those examples are rituals. I mean if you want to call them rituals, go right ahead, but you're using a different definition of the word than everybody else, and the definition you are using is the one everyone else uses for habit.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#325
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/thou_shalt_not_kill It is utterly forbidden to kill in the bible. 200 years after Christ, the Roman army was "Christian". Hmm.

Hebrew has two words for killing. One implies a guilty mind and the other does not. Ask a Hebrew scholar and they'll tell you that the word used for "murder" doesn't include things like military service or capital punishment. And of course, any other interpretation would be at odds with what actually happens in the rest of the Bible.

Very interesting, thank you.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#326
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a brilliant passage but I can help thinking that he is essentially describing a religious experience. The transition from awe at the scale of the universe, to the futility of human selfishness, to the need to treat people kindly, may seem obvious to us but is actually a culturally-dependent response. This is not a criticism, just an acknowledgment that Sagan belonged to a particular culture and this influenced…

Could you describe why or how it is a religious experience to you? I don't understand the connection.

You could call it “trascendental” if you prefer.

I am not a very religious person but I’ve done a fair bit of reading, and it seems clear to me that in this passage Sagan is drawing from a very old and very deep well. This was something embedded in his cultural background and he might not have been aware of it himself.

Specifically, the sequence that goes from a profound aesthetic experience, to awe at the scale of the Universe, to the futility of human selfishness, and finally to the conclusion that we ought to treat each other kindly, is very much not obvious. It just seems obvious to us (and to him) because that’s the culture where we have been raised.

Now, I’m not saying that the experience described in this passage is exactly the same as the Buddha achieving enlightenment or a Christian saint receiving the beatific vision. But they are not completely different either.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#327
post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re going to have to disagree. Habits are merely unformalized rituals. If you examine your day-to-day you may find many rituals you do to prepare your self for the coming moment. Adjusting your volume on your music before a coding session. I obviously don’t know you, but a lot of people like to prepare snacks before watching Youtube. There are a lot of things we think of as habit, but we prepared them literally lik…

Unformalized ritual is an oxymoron. None of those examples are rituals. I mean if you want to call them rituals, go right ahead, but you're using a different definition of the word than everybody else, and the definition you are using is the one everyone else uses for habit.

I guarantee that you do rituals every single day because you prepare for them just like a ritual. A habit? Sure. A ritual, of course.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#328
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lovely. That's the kind of sentiment I was hoping to inspire in the kids. That's not what I found in _Cosmos_ though. The tale of Giordano Bruno seemed more like a celebration of blind faith and trust in posthumous vindication and martyrdom. And an Indiana Jones style switcheroo from Catholicism to Sciencism in one swift motion. Jarring.

I am a bit unsure about what you mean by "sciencism," but I recommend watching the original series and reading Dr Sagan's books! A persistent theme in Dr Sagan's work was the frailty of knowledge, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vMPtpC4wGk and the danger enlightenment faces from fanatics. He also talked, at length, about the shortcomings of religion (and the possibility of partnering with religions against pseudosci…

Maybe the Neil deGrasse Tyson remake of Cosmos has a different tone to Carl Sagan's work. I'd imagined it would very faithful but it completely lacks this tone of humility.

Seems it's not just me who reacted this way: https://ncse.ngo/burning-obsession-cosmos-and-its-metaphysic...

I'm also watching from an almost completely secular society (Sweden) where there is no great need to counter the political influence (etc) of religious organizations. Maybe that is why this comes across as foreign "culture wars" fodder. (I'm also conscious that for this reason I might be naively linking to some partisan organization above... I will just stop typing now.)

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#329
post #177

This discussion is fascinating, anthropologically speaking. Some observations: * Many commenters seem to be holding to this weird idea that if you don't believe God will smite you, you will not be able to behave responsibly, give your word in a trustworthy manner, etc. If there's not a supernatural enforcer then there are no consequences to lying/breaking your oath. Interestingly, it looks to me that even atheists ar…

The Princess Alice experiments imply superstition would have a practical role in a society where (lacking CCTV and other modern technology to supervise) it's important that people do what they're supposed to without actual oversight: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21377689/ Children in that study are markedly less likely to "cheat" in a task if they believe they are being supervised. This can happen because an actua…

The fact that we can't get people to do what they are supposed to do without threat of retaliation is really sad.

Anecdata, I found that religious or otherwise superstitious people have a more flexible morality that allows them to justify objectively bad behaviour, such as cheating.

Frankly, if all it takes is to ask for forgiveness from an eternal being is enough to guarantee eternal reward, justifying bad behaviour in the present is trivial.

Re: New NASA Director Swears Oath on Carl Sagan’s ‘Pale Blue Dot’ Instead of Bible

#330
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ultimate source of consequence is your own conscience, though sadly some people don't have one. But some people who otherwise lack a conscience might still be fearful of God, and so that's why the Bible was seen as a great document to make people swear upon, once upon a time. Though, while the fear of punishment might trump your inclination to do evil, it does not really make you a fundamentally better person. So…

> ... his fundamental ideas about The Golden Rule (i.e. that you should treat others as you would like to be treated yourself), Would you clarify the fundamental phrasing please? The Golden Rule existed long before the Jesus mythology was created - I gather Buddha and Confucius (ostensibly original attribution lands to him) were describing this fairly self-evident social policy several centuries BCE.

The context is how the teachings of Jesus could make it bearable also for atheists to "get behind" swearing on the the Bible. As such, perhaps it's better to swear on the New Testament. But as you say, The Golden Rule isn't a unique philosophical stance to Jesus. So, sure, perhaps some people should rather swear upon the Pabca-sila, or something equivalent.

As for "self-evident social policy" I respectfully disagree. With so much corruption, evil and suffering going on in the world, I think both we and our leaders need some specific reminders from time to time, so we can learn about higher moral ideals, whether that is from Jesus, The Buddha or from Immanuel Kant.

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