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Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

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Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#321

Post by coffeebeqn »

Convolutional wrote: post #238
waihtis wrote: post #177

This is as much a defense policy decision as it is an economic one. Hard for us to get foreign investment living next to a dictatorial warstate unless there's some risk mitigation in place. Not that I don't trust the FDF, pound-for-pound one of the better military organizations out there. (and a happy member of it myself.)

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The last part of this comment makes me realize you have no idea what the Finnish people want. Support for NATO went from 20% to 80% overnight on February 24th.

It is actually the exact opposite - the Finnish foreign policy establishment still had traces of Finlandization and “friendship and cooperation treaty” support that was shaken out by the general public.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#322

Post by myth_drannon »

prepend wrote: post #294
lazide wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, Moscow always ran the USSR. That’s a bit like lamenting that how messed up an abusers knuckles got after hitting it on folks faces for so long.

I can’t reply to comment under this that claimed that people in Moscow were from all across USSR so I’m replying here. The Soviet Union was still ruled by Russians [0]… “ From 1919 until 1991, 89 members of the Politburo were Russians (which makes up 68 percent). In distant second were Ukrainians, who had 11 members in the Politburo, making up 8 percent. In third place are both ethnic Jews and Georgians, who had 4 me…

Well everyone was "Russian" officially. Khrushov was Ukrainian, same can be said with Gorbachev. Many Armenians. There is a concentrated effort to erase all the contributions of other nations of USSR and make Russians as the only builders and inheritors. And this is different from Tsarist Russia where very few non-Russains were allowed to rise in the ranks. That's why large part of Communist movement was comprised from minorities since they were the ones who suffered more from the brutal Tsarist regime.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#324

Post by alkonaut »

petre wrote: post #305
alkonaut wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the expansion of NATO gives the US ability to force its will upon NATO members and its neighbors Last I checked countries apply to join, and the alliance is free to leave. And of course like in any organization if you want to reap the benefits you may want to also accept some of the drawbacks. The most obvious one for a country like Finland probably isn't somehow being under the spell of the US, but rather being in…

Hungary and Turkey can do whatever they want, but the effect of sabotaging the alliance is that they get cut off from US arms deals, maybe even French ones. We have seen this when Turkey bought the S400 from Russia - they got kicked out of the F-35 program. Hungary is still leasing planes from Saab. They will ratify Sweden's NATO membership.

Yeah that's completely expected though I imagine. Buying S-400 something as advanced as AA or Fighter jets is basically the same as a long term future military partnership. It's not like buying socks or trucks. And buying such complex equipment from within the alliance comes with the equivalent promise not to share that tech with those who shouldn't have it.

I think in terms of arms deals Saab will benefit a lot from joining NATO. Gripen would likely have sold a lot better the last 15 years if it had been a NATO built plane.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#325

Post by INTPenis »

bee_rider wrote: post #212
INTPenis wrote: post #157

As a Swede this makes me happy, partially because Finland shares a lot of their border with Russia and can now feel safe knowing they have the might of 30 nations behind them, but also because we're now surrounded by NATO countries. So no need for us to join, right? Right?! Let's remain neutral and a free haven for political dissidents and potential refugees of the future, right?!!

Nobody expects the attack from Kaliningrad!

It would be very hard to pull off tho. Seeing as our neighbors would supply intel and equipment, while they have to cross the baltic sea in plain view. I mean they can barely take southern Ukraine.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#326

Post by Convolutional »

jcranmer wrote: post #297
pjc50 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Winter War overlapped the 1940s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War > Russia could have rolled into Finland in 1945 Unlikely.

The Continuation War ran from 1941 through 1944. Soviet offensives in 1944 had essentially fully exhausted Finnish reserves; although Finland had managed to withstand the final one, they judged that they couldn't withstand one more. At that point, the Finns sued for peace (the peace terms being a slightly upgraded (for the Soviets) version of the treaty at the end of the Winter War). So Russia almost certainly could…

The war hawks here think Russia fully mobilized, Russia which pushed the Wehrmacht back to Berlin in 1945 would have had more than minor difficulty taking over Finland in 1945. Perhaps they should read some history books, even US history books. The present may be cloudy, but the 1940s are less so - listen to their hawkish views, then consider how clear their view of history is.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#327

Post by INTPenis »

yeahwhatever10 wrote: post #226
INTPenis wrote: post #157

As a Swede this makes me happy, partially because Finland shares a lot of their border with Russia and can now feel safe knowing they have the might of 30 nations behind them, but also because we're now surrounded by NATO countries. So no need for us to join, right? Right?! Let's remain neutral and a free haven for political dissidents and potential refugees of the future, right?!!

Is that how NATO is spoken about in Europe, that it is the might of 30 nations and not just the US?

Not really. Those who are pro-NATO don't really care about such details.

Me personally I totally acknowledge the largest military in the world.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#328

Post by coffeebeqn »

INTPenis wrote: post #157

As a Swede this makes me happy, partially because Finland shares a lot of their border with Russia and can now feel safe knowing they have the might of 30 nations behind them, but also because we're now surrounded by NATO countries. So no need for us to join, right? Right?! Let's remain neutral and a free haven for political dissidents and potential refugees of the future, right?!!

The old joke goes that swedens ground forces are Finland and that’s why they only have an Air Force and a navy

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#329

Post by carlosjobim »

thehappypm wrote: post #44
sprash wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These questions are irrelevant. The tactical significance of Finland to Russia is small compared to the resources required to invade it as is. Due to bad cost/benefit ratio it is therefore unlikely for Russia to attack Finland. But now that Finland is part of NATO it has to bear the cost when some other country gets attacked. It's a bad deal.

Russia literally invaded Finland last century

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Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#330

Post by seanw444 »

spookie wrote: post #264
diimdeep wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Yes, we all know that this move was played out by those sneaky Americans. 4D chess that invasion of Ukraine /s

A good politician never lets a catastrophe go to waste. U.S. may not have purposely caused the invasion of Ukraine, but it's certainly a useful tool to rake in those NATO holdouts.
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